american lies

Just to add he said he would wipe Zionism and Nazism from the pages of history.

Zionism and Israel are two different things.



1. Just because the west doesn't do it, it doesn't mean Iran is automatically wrong.

2. America kills people for crimes, and sometimes kills them mistakenly thinking they did it when it later turns out they haven't. America also kills people with diminished mental capacity, which we all agree is wrong.

3. England entered the war due to pacts with other countries. Further Iran hasn't invaded anyone in modern history. Surely Israel, who has invaded many countries is further up the list?

4. Our intervention, as seen in Iraq, causes much more death and destruction then it seeks to prevent. I think the official count of death in Iraq of citizens stands at over a million, which I am reasonably sure is more than the death toll of Sadam's rule for many years.

Sure it is good to intervene with humanitarian crises, but Iran's system of justice is hardly cause for war is it. What next, we don't like how [Insert country with rich natural resources] makes schools, lets invade and show 'em?

1. Your right, it doesn't mean Iran is automatically wrong but I believe that stoning women to death for committing adultery or executing political prisoners is wrong.

2. One of the reasons I'm against the death penalty is the difficulty of proving someone to be 100% guilty. There are other reasons but this post will become rather long if I start outline all my arguments.

3. What list are you talking about? Again I'm not saying Israel is any better or worse than Palestine, how many more times do I need to say it? Would it have been wrong to enter the war if we didn't have a pact with Poland?

4. It's like those people you hear about who get their arms trapped under a rock in the middle of nowhere. It the short term they know it's going to be bloody cutting the arm off but they hope it'll save their life. The ends, as terrible as they are, do sometimes justify the means. Just to clarify, I'm not saying the Iraq death toll is acceptable or in any way insignificant.
Show me your source for there being anywhere close to a million deaths during the Iraq war. Just so you know, estimates for Saddam's death toll vary due to the difficulty of gathering the information but it is estimated to be anything up to two million and that includes acts of genocide.
 
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1) I am not saying it is right by any means, but my point is Iran isn't enemy number one, there are far more worrying things in the world than stoning to death due to adultery, why is the public opinion more focused on the genocide in other parts of the world which to me is more harrowing.

2) Fair enough, my point was why hate on Iran so much when allies closer to home are doing the same thing.

3) American only entered the war when it impacted them directly, and I suspect England would have only entered the war when the threat of Nazi invasion of our Land was a real and direct threat had the pacts not existed.
It would have been right to intervene, but what is right and what is done are two different things, look at the Church's role. It is impossible to say what would have happened.

4) If I'm honest it is a fact I heard in a debate about the war from the mouth of George Galloway but I'm not entirely sure where he got it from or I have recited it correctly. A quick google showed traditional news sources suggesting I am incorrect and I can't find the video where he said it,

Either way this "short term" pain doesn't seem to be leading anywhere in Afghanistan and Iraq is still more violent today than it was under Sadam.
 
And, we mustn't forget, Iran's President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad wants Israel to be, and I quote, "wiped off the map". Now I'm not saying Israel is an innocent party in the middle east but it is just a little bit worrying when someone such as Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, who is believed to be actively perusing nuclear weapons and is a known vociferous anti-semite, wants it wiped off the map.

Incorrect, I believe he said he wanted 'Zionism wiped off the pages of time' or something to that extent. Zionism and Israel are not the same thing.

Already mentioned above, too slow.
 
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" he just popped up and blows her away"

yeah right. Whatever :rolleyes:

Why on earth would a soldier do that?

There's nothing to gain except to upset the locals and get yourself locked up for murder. In my experience soldiers are a bit shy at shooting as it's well drilled into you that if you shoot when you shouldn't you'll be thrown to the wolves.

If you're in a tank you can't exactly be jumping out of the thing and pulling your rifle out, you've a job to do in the tank. The whole thing doesn't add up.

Why are you addressing me?

I'm only quoting the article!

I don't know why a soldier would do that, I don't know why a lot of things that happen in war happen.

:p
 
if anybody has a "shoot first ask questions later" attitude its the yanks.

Just look at the apparent "hostage" rescue a few weeks ago where the helmet cam footage appears to suggest the americans killed the british aid worker with a frag grenade !

Then look at previous history of american blue-on-blue. Its rarely British blue-on-blue as our forces are better trained.

If a british soldier has shot an 8 year old girl, theres more to it than "he just popped up and shot her for no reason"

What's disgusting is our pathetic little subservient get up with the yanks which mean they can slaughter our troops and not even have to give evidence here.

They have get out of jail free cards for mistakes and for being, well lets face it, being American.
 
The Brits havn't arrested thousands of people, nor have we murdered more than a few (do you know how you would react when under extreme stress/life in danger?) and I certainly don't see where we have stolen the resources. Warfighting isn't pleasant, but us Brits are the most restrained out of any military.

It can be argued it was all about putting in a 'friendly' government in replace of Saddam so that oil contracts became viable, which weren't going in the way of the US before 2003 - contracts working or not.
 
It can be argued it was all about putting in a 'friendly' government in replace of Saddam ...
Saddam did of course rise to power with the active support of the CIA and he was seen as an important ally so long as he was helping to destabilise the regime in Iran where a popular uprising had overthrown America's appointee Mohammad Reza Pahlavi, the Shah of Iran.

Saddam got upset at the lack of financial support coming from the West and believed that he had been given the green light by the American Ambassador to invade Kuwait which he accused of stealing Iraqi oil by means of "slant drilling" and being involved with the West in economic warfare against Iraq.

The Americans decided that on balance, they didn't want their friend, the undemocratic Emir of Kuwait overthrown. As a result, they mounted a massive operation to drive the Iraqis out of Kuwait. This ended up being a huge embarrassment to Bush's Daddy and resulted in the imposition of sanctions on Iraq. This in turn resulted in a reduction in Iraqi oil output and US oil company profits. Added to all of this, Saddam is alleged to have threatened to move from Petrodollars to the Euro.
 
Its also fairly rare that people get stoned to death in Iran. That's why it makes the news when it happens.

Iran are signatories to the International Declaration of Human Rights, article 5 of which prohibits "cruel" treatment. I think stoning to death would be considered cruel.

So it shouldn't ever happen, really.
 
1) I am not saying it is right by any means, but my point is Iran isn't enemy number one, there are far more worrying things in the world than stoning to death due to adultery, why is the public opinion more focused on the genocide in other parts of the world which to me is more harrowing.

2) Fair enough, my point was why hate on Iran so much when allies closer to home are doing the same thing.

3) American only entered the war when it impacted them directly, and I suspect England would have only entered the war when the threat of Nazi invasion of our Land was a real and direct threat had the pacts not existed.
It would have been right to intervene, but what is right and what is done are two different things, look at the Church's role. It is impossible to say what would have happened.

4) If I'm honest it is a fact I heard in a debate about the war from the mouth of George Galloway but I'm not entirely sure where he got it from or I have recited it correctly. A quick google showed traditional news sources suggesting I am incorrect and I can't find the video where he said it,

Either way this "short term" pain doesn't seem to be leading anywhere in Afghanistan and Iraq is still more violent today than it was under Sadam.

I must say I'm a little surprised but I mostly agree with you.

1. I put this down to numbers. Hearing about X number of people being killed is terrible but you don't put names to faces, you don't know their back stories, you just know that they are one part of a larger number. In the case of Iran stoning women or the woman from China, who I mentioned in a previous post, who had a forced abortion when she was eight months pregnant, then we get the back story and the name. They're no longer just statistics. Having read about it a lot recently, it depresses me that no one really seems to care about the concentration camps and gulags in North Korea. I watched with interest the coverage of Kim Jong Un being lined up to succeed his father but not once did I hear a mention of the gulags on any news coverage.

2. I don't hate Iran, just some of the beliefs of the Iranian government and the religious leaders that are diametrically opposed to my own (again, I feel I need another paragraph or two to adequately explain what my exact position is in order to avoid any misunderstanding but it's getting late).
I think America's rules of engagement are too aggressive and as a result are more likely to result in the deaths of coalition soldiers and innocent people.

3. Wars are never simple. Justifying them is seemingly even more complex. No one escapes war with an unblemished record of human rights. AS they say though, war isn't black and white but many shades of grey.

4. I have a degree of respect for anyone who can admit when their arguments have flaws.

The thing about any war is it doesn't start with the first shot and end with the last. As much as George Bush (...the ****in' idiot) wanted the war to be over when he declared "mission accomplished" while standing on the deck of the USS Abraham Lincoln., it wasn't. It still isn't. I can't see how any progress can be made. There is no doubt in my mind that Iraq is our Vietnam.

I would suggest that it's actually pretty damned difficult to work out what exactly you ARE saying :confused:

It's hard to convey an opinion on such a complex issue in the space of a paragraph or two.
 
It's hard to convey an opinion on such a complex issue in the space of a paragraph or two.

This is stockhausen, the only response he needs is "Israel are evil and the Palestinians are lovely!". The reality of the situation is unimportant as long as you believe that...
 
Iran are signatories to the International Declaration of Human Rights, article 5 of which prohibits "cruel" treatment. I think stoning to death would be considered cruel.

So it shouldn't ever happen, really.

I'm not defending Iran, I have no links to them, but I am trying to get across that Iran isn't as bad as the media makes it out to be.

America also signed up to lots of treaties and has been proven to torture people both in Gitmo which is cruel and Extraordinary rendition which is definitely cruel (which the UK were compliant with) so before we get ready to do something stupid, how about we work out why we are doing the same things?


Also Doctor McNinja that was a healthy debate, must be a first for GD :)
 
I'm not defending Iran, I have no links to them, but I am trying to get across that Iran isn't as bad as the media makes it out to be.

I am sure the majority of Iranians are very much like the majority of americans, they just want to get on with their lives and cannot really be held responsible for the actions of their government

however the iranian govt IS dangerous..it is not driven by politics and pragmatic thinking, it is driven by religion and an extreme form of the religion

when you have a govt who quite clearly state it is their aim to destroy another country because of its religious ideals then you are never going to be able to negiotiate a peaceful settlement..there is no common sense involved because its idealogically driven and not politically driven.

the same goes with their general attitude to all western govt's..they are so idealogically opposed to our very way of life that there is no compromise, its not simply a case of disagreeing a bit about a political difference, its a fundamental belief that our way of life is wrong and theirs is right and the obnly solution is to make sure their way of life eventually takes over and our way of life is so wrong in their eyes that it can only be destroyed..theres no room for both.

liek I said I dont for one minute think that the majority of the iranian people think thsi way ( and its a young popualtion who I suspect many og whom would like some change and are a bit more forward thinking) but the people in charge simply dont want this and have a firm grip on any dissenting voices

until theirs some change in who actually runs Iran then they are a danger..when you are governed by religion theres no logic involved
 
I find all this very entertaining. Since when USA was a country to bring peace to other countries? I second the stealing of resources from poor and oppressed people.
 
I am sure the majority of Iranians are very much like the majority of americans, they just want to get on with their lives and cannot really be held responsible for the actions of their government

however the iranian govt IS dangerous..it is not driven by politics and pragmatic thinking, it is driven by religion and an extreme form of the religion

when you have a govt who quite clearly state it is their aim to destroy another country because of its religious ideals then you are never going to be able to negiotiate a peaceful settlement..there is no common sense involved because its idealogically driven and not politically driven.

the same goes with their general attitude to all western govt's..they are so idealogically opposed to our very way of life that there is no compromise, its not simply a case of disagreeing a bit about a political difference, its a fundamental belief that our way of life is wrong and theirs is right and the obnly solution is to make sure their way of life eventually takes over and our way of life is so wrong in their eyes that it can only be destroyed..theres no room for both.

liek I said I dont for one minute think that the majority of the iranian people think thsi way ( and its a young popualtion who I suspect many og whom would like some change and are a bit more forward thinking) but the people in charge simply dont want this and have a firm grip on any dissenting voices

until theirs some change in who actually runs Iran then they are a danger..when you are governed by religion theres no logic involved

I was ready to give this thread a rest, but did you read any of the previous posts?

Ahmadinejad didn't say he wanted to wipe out the Jewish population, nor did he say he wanted to wipe Israel of the map, he clearly said Zionism.

So we should probably get worried about the Vatican state as well as they are run purely by religious ideology?

What has Iran ever done to the UK or wherever you reside to make you fear them as being "dangerous", and dangerous how?
 
I was ready to give this thread a rest, but did you read any of the previous posts?

Ahmadinejad didn't say he wanted to wipe out the Jewish population, nor did he say he wanted to wipe Israel of the map, he clearly said Zionism.

So we should probably get worried about the Vatican state as well as they are run purely by religious ideology?

What has Iran ever done to the UK or wherever you reside to make you fear them as being "dangerous", and dangerous how?

I dont fear Iran, but then I dont live in the middle East. I dont even fear islam, but I am worried that its so open to interpretation and abuse by people in power to twist it to control the poulation..and when there is no seperation between religion and state, thats when it becomes problematic. when your foreign policy is dictated by your religious beliefs then theres no room for compromise
 
I was ready to give this thread a rest, but did you read any of the previous posts?

Ahmadinejad didn't say he wanted to wipe out the Jewish population, nor did he say he wanted to wipe Israel of the map, he clearly said Zionism.

How exactly do you think he is going to do that? Considering the history of the nations in the area do you not think that a military option is probably high up on the agenda? The other muslim nations surrounding Israel have certainly tried it on several occassions.

So we should probably get worried about the Vatican state as well as they are run purely by religious ideology?

If they had a large standing army and were starting to develop nuclear weapons then yes, I think we would have to be concerned about them too.

What has Iran ever done to the UK or wherever you reside to make you fear them as being "dangerous", and dangerous how?

I don't "fear" them in any way shape or form, however I do think it would be a bad idea to allow them to have nuclear weapons. The more nations that have them, the more chance they have of getting used.

The long and the short of it though is that the OP seems to think the UK and US human rights records are some of the worst in the world, which seems to sure a certain ignorance on what actually happens in the rest of the world.
 
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