Do you believe in Life after Death.

[Castiel]

What sort of argument is that? Surely that demonstrated even more evidence against the belief being founded? It's nice to think we carry on... So there's plenty of reason for systems and people to endorse it. Doesn't mean it's valid though.

Erm....it was a question, not an argument.

Doesn't mean it's not valid however, every single culture or civilisation since the dawn of man has held some belief in some form of afterlife, without exception.

People say that ancient cultures were blind to science, what if it is science that has made us blind to spirituality and the further away from those beliefs we get the blinder we become.

We have become reliant on science to answer everything and ignore that which it can't, to me this is blindness to possibility.

 

[NeilF]

People say that ancient cultures were blind to science, what if it is science that has made us blind to spirituality and the further away from those beliefs we get the blinder we become.

That's of course possible, but in truth what has spirituality got to do with this thread? Spirituality is not tied to supernatural beliefs?

We have become reliant on science to answer everything and ignore that which it can't, to me this is blindness to possibility.

There's little doubt early superstition came from ignorance of the workings of the universe. Our distant ancestors were no doubt confused and terrified by natural events. eg: A volcano erupts? A god is unhappy with us!?! How did we get here? A god clearly created us! etc etc...

In short - Why do we need to invent the supernatural when there is absolutely no evidence or need for it? And worse still - Why blinker ourselves from reality and perpetuate and endorse such ignorance?

Of course the idea the supernatural exists is an appealing one, and we cannot of course discount that elements of it do indeed merit investigation, but we shouldn't give it undue merit simply because we 'like the idea' as this is simply falling into the same pitfalls as our distant ancestors did, and making us ignore the true state of the universe and the true importance and nature of life on this planet.

 

[jp_bl_68]

I wonder how many of the naysayers will alter their view as they get older and closer to death themselves.

Since making my decision I've been close to death on one occasion and I did wonder if perhaps I'd been wrong in believing there was no God and no afterlife. My doubts quickly passed. Whether that'll be the case ten years from now, who knows.

 

[manic_man]

I wonder how many of the naysayers will alter their view as they get older and closer to death themselves.

Apologies for quoting something already far back, but this struck a chord with me.

You may be right, but surely it perfectly proves that these ideas are mainly a coping mechanism of a being that has evolved so far we can envisage things in our mind beyond what is actually happening.

Personally I want to approach my own old age with the stoicism and dignity of my grandparents. They have always believed only in that which can be logically concluded, and their outlook on getting older has never been any different.

I hope that I will have the courage of my own convictions that I won't suddenly wimp out and decide that, yeah it's OK, my consciousness won't really just cease to exist, it'll carry on somehow.

Well unless of course something quite radical is proven to me between now and then of course...

 

[MookJong]

Blind woman sees during NDE:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HbtoX3Q5OI&feature=related

 

[int]

Duuuude - you can't seriously think tripping on DMT = near death experience. I've flown through space and shredded the very fabric of time whilst tripping, but I've never attributed it to anything other than the mind-binding effects of psychedelic drugs.

There is strong evidence to show that endogenous DMT (that is, DMT that is naturally made by your pineal gland) can get to levels high enough to elicit the same 'trips' you'd experience when smoking it.

High stress situations have been shown to cause levels of DMT to rise in the pineal gland, being near death is pretty stressful. DMT has been linked to NDEs, religious experiences, schizophrenia and other 'mystical states'.

There are a couple of good books out there which cover this in detail. They're not airy fairy books either, they follow in depth research carried out over years and go into detail regarding dosing, route of administration, ethics, the legal side of things as well as logging the volunteer experiences.

Highly recommend "DMT: The Spirit Molecule".

 

[Surfer]

yes but the point is: if you take DMT then your are awake and conscious, your brain states are altered leading to a trippy experience. A nde however can happen when there is no measureable brain function at all. So the question remains - how is it possible for vivid realer than real conscious experiences to happen to someone who is to all current clinical purposes - dead.

I dont have any evidence at all but im kinda leaning towards the brain being some kind of weird wormhole-transdimensional-transducer thingy

 

[V4nger]

Since there is no evidence for anything after death and there is no evidence for there NOT being anything after death, we will just have to leave it to our own personal beliefs and opinions. All those who are saying that there isn't and that those who do believe are idiots, well, you have little evidence to disprove. And believers, (Me included) we have little evidence to prove our beliefs. There is no point in turning belief and opinion into fact as many here are doing as this will get us no where and it's not like any of us, as far as I'm aware, are in a position to carry out extensive research over years to prove either hypotheses.

Continue ranting.

 

[manic_man]

yes but the point is: if you take DMT then your are awake and conscious, your brain states are altered leading to a trippy experience. A nde however can happen when there is no measureable brain function at all. So the question remains - how is it possible for vivid realer than real conscious experiences to happen to someone who is to all current clinical purposes - dead.

I dont have any evidence at all but im kinda leaning towards the brain being some kind of weird wormhole-transdimensional-transducer thingy

Simply because we do not yet understand how the brain works?

Sure we can produce lovely colourful maps of the brain and visualize with some nice representative volume viz techniques, and we have moved on from phrenology that's for sure, we are now able to guess at how the brain is working based on actual collected data... but still, that's all we are doing.

We are slowly starting to understand the electro-chemical nature of the brains physiology, but in terms of understanding how it actually works, how something as simple as a pathway forming results in something as complex as the ability to imagine totally fictional scenarios, we honestly don't have a clue. We are starting to see that the brains most likely method is path of least resistance, i.e. it forms many pathways, but like the road most trodden, the ones used the most become the easiest pathway through.. but really it's still all extrapolated.

Who is to say that there isn't some far deeper yet tiny portion of the brain that is the last to remain active and for some reason is also capable of producing these vivid images that are so commonly described.

Now I know that doesn't prove or disprove anything either sides have said, but it at least is something we are able to explore and come to conclusions about. Which is the fundamental difference between logical extrapolation of ideas and pure faith based ideas.

EDIT: Also, V4anger, you imply that as the chances of finding proof either way are negligible, this should negate any efforts from either side, well from my perspective, as I have currently come to the conclusion that in fact it is most likely that all I am is what is in my head, this makes furthering my own knowledge in the relatively short time of consciousness I get all the more important. Even if it will be mostly lost when I die, who knows I might be able to find something that is of interest to everybody else in the time I have. In deciding that this is all there is, it makes what I do with the time I have very important to me, and understanding the nature of my existence seems like a worthwhile pursuit, even if the question itself is so vast, you can't even start to find an answer if there is no question... we are trying to answer it one piece of a time, and perhaps the very fact we are trying to do so from within the confines of the same thing we are trying to describe means we will never truly succeed, but hey you gotta try right?

 

[int]

yes but the point is: if you take DMT then your are awake and conscious, your brain states are altered leading to a trippy experience. A nde however can happen when there is no measureable brain function at all. So the question remains - how is it possible for vivid realer than real conscious experiences to happen to someone who is to all current clinical purposes - dead.

I dont have any evidence at all but im kinda leaning towards the brain being some kind of weird wormhole-transdimensional-transducer thingy

DMT distorts time, seconds can feel like minutes or hours.
A release of DMT on the brink of death will cause the person to have their NDE and then they will die. When they're 'brought back' so to speak, they'll recount that they were having visions the entire time they were dead, when infact everything they experienced was more than likely occurring in the seconds before they've died.

e: manic_man covers the rest, we don't know enough about the brain to say anything for definite.

I'm a scientist and will take a scientific explanation over a religious one because there is hard evidence, hence my argument for DMT.

 

[Surfer]

cool whats your science degree in? Neuro-chemistry?

Dont think im aware of evidence that says that DMT (produced by the brain) will cause an NDE specific experience. Could you point to the papers which say this so i can have a read? Also do these studies document the times of when the DMT is released in conjunction with the patient having the NDE experience e.g. see the Pam Reynolds NDE example. As i think you are saying that the NDE is found to coincide with when DMT is released in the brain and that ties it up nicely accounting for the NDE experience.

Cant really say "we dont know enough about brain" ie not enough evidence and then on the other hand say "there is hard evidence in favour of science over other explanations". Its open to speculation

 

[manic_man]

cool whats your science degree in? Neuro-chemistry?

Dont think im aware of evidence that says that DMT (produced by the brain) will cause an NDE specific experience. Could you point to the papers which say this so i can have a read? Also do these studies document the times of when the DMT is released in conjunction with the patient having the NDE experience e.g. see the Pam Reynolds NDE example. As i think you are saying that the NDE is found to coincide with when DMT is released in the brain and that ties it up nicely accounting for the NDE experience.

Cant really say "we dont know enough about brain" ie not enough evidence and then on the other hand say "there is hard evidence in favour of science over other explanations". Its open to speculation

Everything ever is open to speculation, the only reasonable path to take is to create working theories and try and prove them beyond reasonable doubt through experimentation.

Saying that we don't know enough about the brain to account for people apparently experiencing life after death is entirely the logical conclusion to draw as the alternative is "something else happens that is due to some entirely unbounded condition that we can never know about" which is an utterly useless train of thought. It's as bad as "I need the answer to the question: what is anything", both are as unbounded, both are as pointless, so I choose to look at it from the position that we already know a little about the brain and it suggests possible solutions to the problems of things like near death experiences, so a logical path to take to find better answers is to look into the way the brain works in greater detail.

We do not know a lot about the way the brain works, there's a reason its probably one of science's hottest topics a.t.m. We are beginning to get a grasp on the mechanics, but how those mechanics = human consciousness.. well... I don't think to shrug and then wildly postulate would be too unreasonable a description of what currently goes on. This will change, I don't know when, I don't know what it'll reveal, that's what is so exciting.

And for the record, although I don't think the question was directed at me, my science degrees are in computing, specialising in visual computing, which in turn has led to a reasonably large amount of involvement in groups of people who specialise in understanding how the brain processes imagery and visual data. So my knowledge is all regurgitated facts from other far more qualified people than me.

Doesn't mean I find it any less fascinating and would also be interested in reading new specifics about the likes of naturally produced DMT, though I have read a little already as the effects of hallucinogens are of great interest to people involved in visual processing (i.e. how can parts of the brain take in data and process it as though it came from the optical system when in fact it was generated by entirely different processes? Does this suggest some form of "uniform" way to package data for processing, things like that, all very interesting).

 

[NeilF]

Blind woman sees during NDE:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HbtoX3Q5OI&feature=related

Don't get it... How is her imagination any different to anyone elses just because she's blind?

Her account does not describe anything she could 'see'. She doesn't for example describe the 'floor as checkered'.... Or 'there was an empty bed next to me'... Instead it was all things she could easily imagine...

 

[LabR@t]

I'm about 60/40 in believing there is something out there...another plane or dimension that consciousness exists in.

There have also been some very odd things happen to friends and family that have yet to be explained.

Some of the most compelling evidence for me comes from people who were born blind at birth that during near death experience were able to see for the first time.

May I suggest you read this book here

it has really changed my view on consciousness and after life.

 

[LabR@t]

DMT distorts time, seconds can feel like minutes or hours.
A release of DMT on the brink of death will cause the person to have their NDE and then they will die. When they're 'brought back' so to speak, they'll recount that they were having visions the entire time they were dead, when infact everything they experienced was more than likely occurring in the seconds before they've died.

e: manic_man covers the rest, we don't know enough about the brain to say anything for definite.

I'm a scientist and will take a scientific explanation over a religious one because there is hard evidence, hence my argument for DMT.

as already posted

pineal gland produces DMT in humans it begins activity at 49 of fetus development with a large pulse of DMT generated and the Buddhist religion believes that after death the soul leaves the body after 49 days and the pineal gland is the seat of the soul.


Read the book I have posted its the only officially funded scientific study done on DMT the Dr.strassman has stated that after doing the research he has changed changed his own feelings on the human soul,spirit,death and god but doesn't state what it is mind you.

The book is easy to read for such an academic subject and the descriptions of the actual experiments are profound. To supplement that book I would recommend Graham Hancock - Supernatural which looks into the development of the human consciousness from 40,000 years ago and how psychedelic plants have shaped us or even were the key to our human consciousness its a little hard to get into as it looks in depth at ancient cave art and the more recent San art in south africa before exploring dmt and other plants and techniques for trance states.

Both have opened my mind up to a whole new possibility to what it is to be a human.

Probably only suitable if you are the type of person with an open mind to such ideas, but I found them fascinating.

 

[Castiel]

That's of course possible, but in truth what has spirituality got to do with this thread? Spirituality is not tied to supernatural beliefs?

This thread was not begun to discuss supernatural beliefs. It was specifically about spirituality rather than any strictly religious interpretation of an afterlife.

I specifically stated so in the OP;

Now I am not limiting this to some pseudo-religious definition, but just asking the question if anyone has a view or more importantly reason to believe either yes or no.

<snip>

Was this a case of errant brain chemistry or something more, I cannot say, but it did open my mind from the certainty that there is nothing more after this life and I now accept that maybe there is more to spirituality and a supposed afterlife than I first thought.

Anyone else had such a epiphany, or have any thoughts on the afterlife, or do you simply not believe there is anything more.

There's little doubt early superstition came from ignorance of the workings of the universe. Our distant ancestors were no doubt confused and terrified by natural events. eg: A volcano erupts? A god is unhappy with us!?! How did we get here? A god clearly created us! etc etc...

In short - Why do we need to invent the supernatural when there is absolutely no evidence or need for it? And worse still - Why blinker ourselves from reality and perpetuate and endorse such ignorance?

Of course the idea the supernatural exists is an appealing one, and we cannot of course discount that elements of it do indeed merit investigation, but we shouldn't give it undue merit simply because we 'like the idea' as this is simply falling into the same pitfalls as our distant ancestors did, and making us ignore the true state of the universe and the true importance and nature of life on this planet.

This is the exact point I was making, are you not by refusing to accept that an afterlife could well be a natural state and thus dismissing it as supernatural you are taking a position that blinds you to the possibility that the reality that science would have us suppose is not so one (or three) dimensional after all.

It is interesting that a significant portion of theoretical physicists like Dyson, Einstein and Schrödinger all toyed with the idea that an afterlife may well be possible both scientifically and thus naturally. Much like that anscestor that beleived the erupting volcano was God's wrath, are we not in danger of the very same naivety and ignorance, even arrogance in some cases.

We are all, everything within this Universe made of the same stuff, it is not too much of a leap to suggest that that same stuff may indeed have properties that could mean that the energy that makes up our individuality is transferable from one corporeal construct to another, or even that as individuals we are ultimately just single aspects of a universal conciousness, a part of a whole live Universe if you like. Everything in the Universe has a common ancestor after all.

Forget about cultural, religious, or supernatural constructs and look at the universe in a different way, simple things like, why do we feel kinship with one person, yet no another aside from the normal similarities, we all have at least one friend that we little in common with yet still enjoy being with and things like that, or why have so may unconnected ancient cultures had similar spiritual/religious stories within their civilisation?

Do we for example have some kind of Racial Memory like Dawkins contends with his Meme theory, Could those Memes simply be a device for passing on cultural bias and process or something far more (if they exist at all of course).

I thinking out loud if you like, but do you see why I began the thread, not so much to diss religion or dismiss the supernatural, but to create some kind of free-thinking discourse on what people think about their existence and mortality.

 

[manic_man]

Castiel - if the "super" natural is in fact natural, then eventually we will find this out as long as we are around long enough to do enough thinking and experimentation... and then it will be the natural.

At the moment there is no proof that the super natural is natural, so why as a rational human being would I chose to believe that it is?

 

[c@tbyte]

Not a chance of life, or anything, after death.

A pity though.
I could then give, (insert deity of your choice), a right bollocking for sticking us on this death trap of a planet. And I don't mean the things we do to ourselves. It's the Volcanos, Tsunamis, Earthquakes etc.

Can you really imagine a 'Loving' deity doing that ?

 

[NeilF]

This thread was not begun to discuss supernatural beliefs. It was specifically about spirituality rather than any strictly religious interpretation of an afterlife.

I specifically stated so in the OP;

Huh? The title of the thread, and OP, is talking about "like after death" which is entirely in the realms of the supernatural?

 

[Castiel]

Castiel - if the "super" natural is in fact natural, then eventually we will find this out as long as we are around long enough to do enough thinking and experimentation... and then it will be the natural.

At the moment there is no proof that the super natural is natural, so why as a rational human being would I chose to believe that it is?

I'm not asking you to believe, but to think.

What if?, instead of no it doesn't! If you see my point.