Religion - I can understand someone believing in god/jesus, but why do they believe in the bible?

WalesOwl said:
So if God created the earth he couldn't make it look like it was 4 billion years old? Like if a seed was made first or a tree? Well both. It was created as is with everything in balance, makes much more sense than macro evolution.
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And yet here we are, with a massive fossil record. What to do... what to do...

Besides, the whole "it could have been created this way" thing is one step from madness. The entire universe could have sprung into existence 30 seconds ago with everyone's memories created as they are now.
 
WalesOwl said:
So if God created the earth he couldn't make it look like it was 4 billion years old? Like if a seed was made first or a tree? Well both. It was created as is with everything in balance, makes much more sense than macro evolution.
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If that's not clutching at straws to justify the bibles account of creation I'll eat my hat .

I expect god also thought,
I know I'll put some black stuff a mile underground and also under the sea that they can dig out in later centuries and call fossil fuel to help mankind develop quicker .
 
vonhelmet said:
And yet here we are, with a massive fossil record. What to do... what to do...

Besides, the whole "it could have been created this way" thing is one step from madness. The entire universe could have sprung into existence 30 seconds ago with everyone's memories created as they are now.
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Why not? If there such a being that can create the universe surely you don't think that simple feat is out of His grasp?
 
izzy eckerslike said:
Now your getting a bit silly


If I was only created 30 seconds ago then how come an email just arrived telling me the DVD I ordered yesterday has just been posted :p
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Is that not the point. Everything could have been created 30 seconds ago and you memory and everyone else's including the dvd dispatcher woukd never know.


Reboot......
 
boxman2000 said:
- In no place does the bible contradict itself, infact the books often support each other
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That really isn't the case. There are plenty of contradictions in the bible. Especially when both Testaments get involved. For example, the birth date of Christ. Census or not? Herods reign or not? It can't be during both.

boxman2000 said:
- Kings, rulers, political figures, movements and cultural influence can be backed up by secular historians, e.g. Josephus
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How can Josephus back up the bible when he was writing after it was alledgely finished?

boxman2000 said:
- Prophecies such as world rulers, punishment/blessing of nations, promised Messiah etc
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The promised messiah bit sort of relies on you believing Christ is he. The rest tends to be the usual vague pronouncements that get retrofitted into events. See Nostrodamus.

boxman2000 said:
- The bible noted the Earth was round, centuries before it was discovered. Medical advice, hygiene, basis for legal system and so on – all can be found in the scripture.
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That "Earth was round" bit is actually rubbish. For a start the majority of people who actually cared about it have known about it (spherical rather than round) for a very long time and any bible references tend to be somewhat vague and need a certain amount of linguistic ballet to interpret as a spherical earth.

boxman2000 said:
- Establishment of Israel as a nation in 1948, direct fulfilment of prophecy
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I would have a reread of that prophecy...

boxman2000 said:
Investigating both sides of an argument is just normal practice..... just incase someone has something wrong. Isn’t it better to form an opinion yourself than just take on someone else’s view? The consequences in dismissing the bible if it is right are there to be read..... surely investigating for yourself is a worthwhile exercise?
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Do not make the mistake that all the agnostics/atheists on this board have no knowledge of the bible.

As an aside. Why Christianity? There are a myriad of other religions with similar levels of "proof". So what makes you think Christianity is right and so many others are wrong? The sureity you have in your faith is held by many others professing different faiths (or even no faith at all) so why is Christianity right and all the others wrong?
 
izzy eckerslike said:
The point I was trying to make was that my sarcastic saying that' being an atheist I can't possibly be kind and helpful'
followed by his sanctimonious reply that 'many are' 'most are' giving the impression that being religious automatically makes you a better person whereas it's not likely that all atheists are, Can anyone see what I am getting at ?
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Ah, right, OK, so you're disputing the claim that some Christians make that non-Christians can't do good things, even though that's quite obviously false.
 
As far as biblical contradictions go how about these for starters .
Oh,if it's just translation errors, my bad

Which first--beasts or man?

GEN 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
GEN 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

GEN 2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
GEN 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

The number of beasts in the ark

GEN 7:2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.

GEN 7:8 Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth, GEN 7:9 There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.
 
RDM - these types of discussions end up being an immovable object vs an unstoppable force.

Not really familiar with that apparent contradition - verses would help.

Josephus backs up a lot of historical references in the bible, yes.

Well Isiah 53 in itself is pretty clear on who the messiah is....... but again it comes down to faith!

The point is there is a lot of information there that was ahead of it's time.

I would take a second look if I were you :)

Why would I make any conclusion that people on here have no knowledge of the bible? It's easier to encourage people to read anything with an open mind, whether secular or religious. You know as well as I do there are far too many keyboard warriors on these forums who type what they like with nothing to substanciate - at the same time there are plenty of folks that are clued up.

Why Christianity? Having questioned for a long time, to me it ended up being when I was at rock bottom in so many areas of my life that I realised I didn't have to do this on my own. It was an immediate lifting of the weight of the problems and an understanding my sins had been forgiven.... but the things that had brought me to rock bottom didn't all go at once..... the effects of these issues will live with me until I die I suspect.... but I know and believe the bible when it says that Jesus paid for all of our sins, we just have to except the gift.

How do you explain faith? Not easy to pin down but I hope that answers it in part.

The difference in Christianity and believing on Jesus is that:-

1) Jesus died taking the punishment each of us deserved for sin - which God would do that?
2) Jesus rose from the dead (faith 'leader' is still alive while others have long died) so that we (mankind) may know Him as Lord and Saviour
3) So many other religions stemmed from Judaism/Christianity
4) The more time you spend looking into the bible, the more it confirms itself.

Much more
 
izzy eckerslike said:
As far as biblical contradictions go how about these for starters .
Oh,if it's just translation errors, my bad

Which first--beasts or man?

GEN 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
GEN 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

GEN 2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
GEN 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
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Newer transations, in Genesis 2:19, have "Now the Lord God had formed out of the ground all the wild animals". It's an issue of tenses.

izzy eckerslike said:
The number of beasts in the ark

GEN 7:2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.

GEN 7:8 Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth, GEN 7:9 There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.
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Seven pairs. Pair by pair. That's another old translation, too.

Are these from the KJV? I'd be more impressed if you attacked the NIV or NRSV on that sort of front.

Not a big deal at all. You can do better than that if you want actual contradictions. Go for the Gospels. Eyewitness accounts always differ, even in our modern courts of law when dealing with things that happened 6 months ago.
 
boxman2000 said:
1) Jesus died taking the punishment each of us deserved for sin - which God would do that?
2) Jesus rose from the dead (faith 'leader' is still alive while others have long died) so that we (mankind) may know Him as Lord and Saviour
3) So many other religions stemmed from Judaism/Christianity
4) The more time you spend looking into the bible, the more it confirms itself.

Much more
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Well put Boxman, always good to hear a believer put faith into action.
 
boxman2000 said:
RDM - these types of discussions end up being an immovable object vs an unstoppable force.
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Not really, I am quite happy to be proven wrong. It is all moot to me because it isn't the veracity of the bible that turns me off the abrahamic god but his actions. If the bible were 100% true I would still have some pretty serious issues with the God as described.

boxman2000 said:
Not really familiar with that apparent contradition - verses would help.
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Matthew 2 mentions Herod the Great and the slaughter of the innocents. The event never happened as far as any other historian cares to mention. Inlcuding Josephenus.

Luke 1 mentions Jesus being born during the reign of Herod the Great, Luke 2 mentions him being born during the time Qurinius was governer. About a decade seperates Herod's death and Qurinius being governer. Luke 2 also mentions a "world wide" census. No other record of this is made by any historian, though again Josephus mentions a Judean one. However this is in 6CE and so again after Herod's death.

boxman2000 said:
Well Isiah 53 in itself is pretty clear on who the messiah is....... but again it comes down to faith!

The point is there is a lot of information there that was ahead of it's time.
...
I would take a second look if I were you :)
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The problem is, as with much "prophecy" you are retrofitting what he said with that happened. Jesus was executed therefore Isiah must have been talking about Jesus! Much like some say the same with regards to Isiah 7, "Oh look! Virgin birth, it must have been Jesus!".

boxman2000 said:
1) Jesus died taking the punishment each of us deserved for sin - which God would do that?
2) Jesus rose from the dead (faith 'leader' is still alive while others have long died) so that we (mankind) may know Him as Lord and Saviour
3) So many other religions stemmed from Judaism/Christianity
4) The more time you spend looking into the bible, the more it confirms itself.
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1. Probably the same God that has decided we need punishing in the first place? Contrary bugger.
2. Plenty of Gods go around raising from the dead.
3. Many more didn't.
4. Not if you look with critical eyes it doesn't!
 
boxman2000 said:
1) Jesus died taking the punishment each of us deserved for sin - which God would do that?
2) Jesus rose from the dead (faith 'leader' is still alive while others have long died) so that we (mankind) may know Him as Lord and Saviour
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Have you any proof or evidence of those statements other than your faith ? no you haven't .

Some of you are so blinded to reality when it comes to religion, take the recent visit of the pope to Cofton park which is very near to us.
Whilst walking the dog we've watched people digging up pieces of turf to take home 'because his holiness walked on it' people kissing the ground underneath where the staging was set. Is this rational behaviour of presumed intelligent people, do they think the pope a living god or what ?
 
Regarding the slaughter of the innocents, Bethlehem was just a small town - maybe a large village. Total number of children under 2 was probably just double figures. That sort of event was very unlikely to make it into any official record. Why would you expect historians to record it?
 
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