Why do bikers..

iaind - half the bikers you see do something idiotic because you probably don't see all the others that are just riding normally and safely - an opinion that is probably formed by a few bad experiences.

I wouldn't be surprised if the bikers are all lumped together, whereas a car driver might be segregated into a make or model "all GTI drivers are tools", "all ST drivers drive like idiots" etc. I wonder how many car drivers can even tell different sorts and types of bikes apart?

I know that I'm a much better and safer driver since I started riding. I prefer it to driving the car, but don't like the reaction that you get from some car drivers. Around our way, every time you filter to the front of traffic at the lights, you may as well have slapped the car driver(s) there with a gauntlet to some sort of drag race. And when filtering, there's a reason why most bikers spend more time looking at car drivers' heads and where they're pointing, trying to predict the next move, rather than at the road. It is a 6th sense that most develop pretty quick.
 
But by the same logic, you could say I wasnt seeing loads of drivers who are driving well. So if that makes my guestimate of 50% more like 10%, it would make my guestimate of car drivers out by the same amount so the point would still stand. I'm just saying that from the bikers I see, a higher proportion do something silly than the car drivers I see. It's about as subjective and fair a comparison as an individual can make.
If bikers were difficult to spot, you might have a point, but a they're just as obvious on the road as cars

Some official statistics, such as death rates, would back that up. You're right though, that I dont know what different bikes are (they all look the same to me) - which is why I think its fair to lump all 2 wheeled motorised things together, just like all 4 wheeled motorised things together :)
 
iaind said:
But by the same logic, you could say I wasnt seeing loads of drivers who are driving well. So if that makes my guestimate of 50% more like 10%, it would make my guestimate of car drivers out by the same amount so the point would still stand. I'm just saying that from the bikers I see, a higher proportion do something silly than the car drivers I see. It's about as subjective and fair a comparison as an individual can make.
If bikers were difficult to spot, you might have a point, but a they're just as obvious on the road as cars

Some official statistics, such as death rates, would back that up. You're right though, that I dont know what different bikes are (they all look the same to me) - which is why I think its fair to lump all 2 wheeled motorised things together, just like all 4 wheeled motorised things together :)
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As has been repeatedly said, "what looks silly" is an entirely subjective thing. Because you have admitted you have no experience riding a motorbike, what you think looks silly for a motorcyclist isn't something that has a lot of useful meaning.

I ride a motorbike and I drive a car. I don't drive an articulated lorry, so I don't judge manoeuvres that those vehicles make as being silly or otherwise. I've no idea what is silly and what isn't in the context of a 44-ton lorry. Similarly, dropping a 400-ton piece of aluminium onto a bit of tarmac at 150mph might seem a bit dodgy to me, but I don't fly planes for a living.

And I'd heavily dispute your claim that bikes are as 'obvious as cars' on the roads. It's well known that car drivers who don't see motorbikes is one of the major things that bikers watch out for on the roads. They go out of their way to be visible, audible and generally noticed, because everyone's had a scary moment when a car driver "didn't see them".

MrLOL said:
Those arent statistics, they are figures i made up to illustrate a point:

That regular bike riders tend to ride more sensibly than the weekend warriors with a death wish and a sports bike

wouldn't you agree ? :)
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I agree that more experienced bikers are better than less experienced bikers.
 
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Hmm, as I've said a few times though - I dont need to have experience riding a bike to have a problem with one trying to climb into my boot. I've never driven a lorry, does that mean I can't see when a lorry driver is doing something dangerous?

I think the problem with people not seeing bikes isnt that they arent seen at all, it's that they are seen too late. In the context of road safety, it's a big problem - but in the context of being conscious of how many vehicles you're seeing on the road, I don't think it's the same argument.

Most bikes are quite colourful, loud, and travelling faster than cars - so I dont think I'm not noticing any that are around me on the road, any more than I'm not noticing cars
 
iaind said:
Hmm, as I've said a few times though - I dont need to have experience riding a bike to have a problem with one trying to climb into my boot. I've never driven a lorry, does that mean I can't see when a lorry driver is doing something dangerous?
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Sometimes, it's clearcut, sometimes it isn't. Bear in mind there's also a difference between someone riding two inches from your bootlid, and someone riding two inches from your bootlid, but alongside you. One is dangerous, the other, less so. In my experience, drivers get visibly annoyed with things that I do that they *think* are dangerous, but I know is the safest thing to do at the time. This annoys me, but there's absolutely nothing I can do about it. Given a choice between being as safe as possible and ****ing off as few a people as possible, I'll choose my own safety.

I think the problem with people not seeing bikes isnt that they arent seen at all, it's that they are seen too late. In the context of road safety, it's a big problem - but in the context of being conscious of how many vehicles you're seeing on the road, I don't think it's the same argument.
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I agree, it's not the same argument. But the problem of being seen too late isn't a problem of not being visible enough, it's a problem of drivers not being observant enough.

Most bikes are quite colourful, loud, and travelling faster than cars - so I dont think I'm not noticing any that are around me on the road, any more than I'm not noticing cars
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But the point is that people in general remember and notice the irregular, and disregard the ordinary. And we've already covered why your assessment of the skills of drivers might be better than it might be for bikers.
 
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why pick on bikers? mallory park race days.... that's why. Apparently the 'track' keeps on going when they ride home. :rolleyes:

The kind of roads around there are just not suitable for popping wheelies, or 20 bike long chains overtaking on blind bends. As for how 'high-viz' bikes are, that matters little - even with correct mirror use, you are unlikely to see an overtaking biker travelling at 80+ mph on a nsl road - the time spent viewing mirrors to be unquestionably alert for an event such as this detracts from your primary focus: what's on the road in front of you. Bikers of that sort ought to have more consideration for car drivers and the speed limit.

Having sad that, there's dobbers on 2 wheels and 4 wheels. But something I've never heard a biker comment on is the cost to any car driver who kills a biker because the biker is riding dangerously*. Same accident in a car and both parties might only have to exchange insurance details. Hit a bike and there's a good chance you've just killed someone. Even if it's not your fault, that's still a heavy burden.
It's a telling fact that most of the bikers I knew who died in rta's were riding too fast or aggressively (eg. on the wrong side of the road). The one's who just ride from A to B are still here.

As with most of these topics it's all 'I' 'Me' etc and little regard for the other guy on the road, be he a car driver or a biker.

I object to other road users putting my life in danger and risking their own at my expense. Doesn't matter what they're using on the road.



*this does not always mean excessive speed
 
So todays lesson.

Instead of asking why do bikers do x, y, z..

Why dont you take a few lessons and learn for yourself.

£20quid for an hours insight might do you a bit of wonder
 
Just a thought, I have a near miss on bike EVERY week... car pulling out on me, old blindspot chesnut etc etc, always a car. There is a blindspot, but I never sit in it.. but blindspot is such a small area and it's still used as a excuse for poor observational skills. I try to make eye contact with people at junctions, often though they are impossible to do this with as seem preoccupied with something other than the road. If I have failed eye contact I slow to almost stop, and even then I've had someone tbone me.

How many bikers here when in a car still look over shoulder before switching lanes and do left turn safetys ?, I know I do.. it's a habbit you get into.

I have never in 20+ years commuting on a bike almost been knocked of by another bike...good stat that one!

All the spouting of stats in this thread even if just a estimate is just BS to prove a point, with the real point being they hate bikes / bikers, fair enough I guess. I argue the stats are just pure rubbish and I'm accused of trolling ?, the stat quoters I have to suggest are in fact provoking some biker reaction for amusement. :D

The point where the thread descended into trolling for me is iaind's secret dig at me for missus driving a i10.. whats that got to do with anything, a car is a car, at least it all feels the same when you're rolling across the bonnet of one (and believe me it hurts like nothing else)

The only time a bike isn't a bike is when it's a 500bhp turbo busa in that video, thats a rocket on wheels :)
 
MrLOL said:
its not just experience is it though ?

There are plenty of "experienced" riders who still choose to ride like tools and with a deathwish.
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Experience though can tell you when it's ok to hoon about abit... I've lost count of times of car drivers here shouting about latest sideways action antics.

Stuff like that would be lethal in the wrong place, however experience and common sense would tell you to do it somewhere where it's not a danger to others, which I assume they do.

This is motors forum, people always talking of power and handling, the majority here enjoy abit of fun now and again. Some bikers and car drivers do it where it's a danger to others and thats not on though.

The laws of the road are there to help us stay within limits deemed as safe, I will put my hand up that if I think the road is suitable, and no others are about I will disregard the law on occasion, but I'm sure many of you do the same or you wouldn't own 200+ bhp cars dripping in halfords addons ;)

I think those that do ride with a deathwish, and of course there are plenty, deserve to have a off... and that hopefully will teach them not to do the same again. I remember the first time I was tboned at a junction on ZZR600 at age of 17, possibily the most pain I've ever experienced and I've never treated a junction the same again (ie - just ride across it, thats something you just can't afford to do)
 
gillywibble said:
Always :)
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:), I have heart attack when missus (in i10 lol), just drives past tjunctions with cars waiting without covering brake / slowing / making eye contact / moving out to white line / sweating abit / planning escape route

more people on the road need to ride / drive about thinking 'what if..'
 
bikers who think filtering is their right rather than a privilge annoy me, as I was a biker for 3 years I can appreciate both sides of this discussion

point in case, this morning, a bus pulled in at his stop, getting past him required me going into the middle of the road, I indicated and saw a bike a fari few cars behind, he was tonking it, the road in question is a 30 and he was at least double. To stop my pulling out wouldn't have been the end of the world but I know he saw me as his forks were compressing - anyway, we all filter round the bus and lo and behold at the next roundabout said biker decides to give me a piece of my mind, having had a few minutes to predict this scenario I had prepared a nice, concise and well thought out response to his drivvel. Young lad, nice bike, looked like a power ranger, rode off with his tail between his legs and a good dressing down on the rights of bikers, filtering and using excessive speed to do it.

I'm the first person to pull over and allow bikers through, I get lots of air kicks and waving hands to thank me, but I'm also the first person to inconvenience a biker if I watch them bullying their way through traffic or driving like a tool, the amount I see in London shaking their heads and swearing at people for no reason is borderline comedy.

that said there are plenty of dicks in cars too :)
 
Flukester said:
Just a thought, I have a near miss on bike EVERY week... car pulling out on me, old blindspot chesnut etc etc, always a car. There is a blindspot, but I never sit in it.. but blindspot is such a small area and it's still used as a excuse for poor observational skills. I try to make eye contact with people at junctions, often though they are impossible to do this with as seem preoccupied with something other than the road. If I have failed eye contact I slow to almost stop, and even then I've had someone tbone me.

How many bikers here when in a car still look over shoulder before switching lanes and do left turn safetys ?, I know I do.. it's a habbit you get into.

I have never in 20+ years commuting on a bike almost been knocked of by another bike...good stat that one!

All the spouting of stats in this thread even if just a estimate is just BS to prove a point, with the real point being they hate bikes / bikers, fair enough I guess. I argue the stats are just pure rubbish and I'm accused of trolling ?, the stat quoters I have to suggest are in fact provoking some biker reaction for amusement. :D

The point where the thread descended into trolling for me is iaind's secret dig at me for missus driving a i10.. whats that got to do with anything, a car is a car, at least it all feels the same when you're rolling across the bonnet of one (and believe me it hurts like nothing else)

The only time a bike isn't a bike is when it's a 500bhp turbo busa in that video, thats a rocket on wheels :)
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I always look over my shoulder and I don't ride a bike :confused:

Seriously though dude, stop taking everything so personally - you're taking a very general, carefully explained point, taken it personally and tried on a few occasions to turn it around with personal insults again. That's why I acused you of trolling earlier with your stupid babelfish comments and the like.

I've simply tried to get across that it is my impression/experience that there are more poor bikers on the road than drivers. That IS my experience, yours and that of others may vary - remember I live in the home of fair weather bikers, I might mot even see a biker for a few days now! How about little things that don't even affect safety - I don't think Ive ever been let out of a junction by a biker in 8 years of driving. How many times do I get thanked for letting bikers pull out or moving over to let them past? Almost never - probably down to my location, as above.

If you said you've encountered more crap drivers in red hondas than other cars, I wouldn't start getting all defensive and throwing personal insults back at you. Its just expressing an experience, not trying to label you or any other bikers in this thread as dangerous - you seem to be totally ignoring that point (which Ive made over and over) and focussing on the little details which you don't agree with.

You have talked about some of the things you've done on your bike which, to me, are totally idiotic. But you chose to talk about them and that's my opinion. And yes, I am entitled to an opinion without having ridden a bike.

As for the i10 "dig" - again, why take things so personally? I just wanted 2 cars at the opposite ends of the spectrum and those are the first 2 that popped into my head - the i10 probably because I was talking to you and the BMW because I'm in the home of mad BMW lovin.

You need to stop taking everything so personally, not everything is about you and a general point isn't a personal insult. So unless you're one of the idiots flying past me on the a38 at silly speeds or trying to mount my tailgate, you can consider yourself entirely excused from my own experiences - as chances are youve never been part of them
 
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Flukester said:
I think those that do ride with a deathwish, and of course there are plenty, deserve to have a off... and that hopefully will teach them not to do the same again. I remember the first time I was tboned at a junction on ZZR600 at age of 17, possibily the most pain I've ever experienced and I've never treated a junction the same again (ie - just ride across it, thats something you just can't afford to do)
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sometimes its not though is it ?

Look at the bloke who posted the video of him driving like a tit on the Cat & Fiddle

He was blasted by most on here, including some of our bikers.

So he removed the video, and went off crying to the bikechat forums who were all full of praise for him riding like that.

Until he got arrested and charged with dangerous driving.

Then all of the critics came out, but that doesnt change the scores of people who all thought that riding that got him arrested for dangerous driving and crossing sold white lines multiple times and overtaking on blind bends was perfectly safe.
 
iaind said:
Seriously though dude, stop taking everything so personally - you're taking a very general, carefully explained point, taken it personally and tried on a few occasions to turn it around with personal insults again. That's why I acused you of trolling earlier with your stupid babelfish comments and the like.
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Couldn't be further from truth, I don't take anything serious here really... but enjoy a good bit of banter.

If the babelfish joke went past you, I excuse my very dry sense of humour (who's taking it seriously here ?)

The opening posts here were far from carefully explained, how can 50% of bikers you see be riding like divs be 'carefully' anything, it's just BS, which is my opinion and I'm sticking to it.
 
MrLOL said:
sometimes its not though is it ?

Look at the bloke who posted the video of him driving like a tit on the Cat & Fiddle

He was blasted by most on here, including some of our bikers.

So he removed the video, and went off crying to the bikechat forums who were all full of praise for him riding like that.

Until he got arrested and charged with dangerous driving.

Then all of the critics came out, but that doesnt change the scores of people who all thought that riding that got him arrested for dangerous driving and crossing sold white lines multiple times and overtaking on blind bends was perfectly safe.
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Thats one person though, I don't think he represents bikers in general very well... I could post 1000s of youtube links of worse from those in cars. I don't approve of his riding style, he deserved all he got.

Lets face it we're all human whatever we chosse for transport / pleasure.. what you can't do as single out a particular group and label half of them divs and dangerous riders

(well I guess you can, but you sound abit of a plank doing so)
 
Flukester said:
Couldn't be further from truth, I don't take anything serious here really... but enjoy a good bit of banter.

If the babelfish joke went past you, I excuse my very dry sense of humour (who's taking it seriously here ?)

The opening posts here were far from carefully explained, how can 50% of bikers you see be riding like divs be 'carefully' anything, it's just BS, which is my opinion and I'm sticking to it.
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Choosing to express it numerically was probably a bad idea, as I admitted further up, as I'm reality it's impossible to put a number on so apologies for that clouding matters.

But I will stand by the fact that in my experiences, on the roads down here, the proportion of dangerous road users on bikes is largely disproportionate to the quantity of them on the road. Its almost entirely down to my location - come down here for a few weeks in the summer and you'll see my point
 
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