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AMD warns of tesselation pitfalls

So, anyone else remember when, on this forum, AMD/ATI were slated over the 'TWIMTBP' thing, because "they should stop complaining and actually work with developers like Nvidia do!"

And when they do actually liaise with developers, its because they'r inferior to Nvidia.

Sigh.
 
I guess ATI have identified a few areas where Tesselation hurts their GPU's much more than NVida products. I doubt that it will be 6900 specific, but it could have something to do with the iminent release of 3DMark11.

It seems very strange to be announcing this now. Smoke and fire....

I don't agree with any side implementing something to such a degree with no obvious quality improvement but only because it performs worse on the competition more than the other & gives the consumer overall less performance for what they paid for.
 
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Whatever way it is viewed, this seem very defensive and bad for ATI. Assuming that NVidia products are superior at handling badly coded tesselation, it stands to reason that they will also provide better handling for correct/optimised coding. The ATI PR machine should concentrate on it's architectual strengths, of which there are many.
 
So, anyone else remember when, on this forum, AMD/ATI were slated over the 'TWIMTBP' thing, because "they should stop complaining and actually work with developers like Nvidia do!"

And when they do actually liaise with developers, its because they'r inferior to Nvidia.

Sigh.

Seems people don't understand what AMD is talking about at all as you don't need any other competing product at all for the comments that AMD have made to be still totally valid.

Efficient use of is a valid goal & the reason why AMD's market share has gained because AMD has applied Efficient use of to as many things as its capable of.

If AMD GPU was the same size & cost to make as the NV GPU & performed less then yeah kudos to NV for being better.
 
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Whatever way it is viewed, this seem very defensive and bad for ATI. Assuming that NVidia products are superior at handling badly coded tesselation, it stands to reason that they will also provide better handling for correct/optimised coding. The ATI PR machine should concentrate on it's architectual strengths, of which there are many.

Yes but the problem is NV is encouraging bad use of tessellation already.

NV is not interested in handling for correct/optimised coding that runs well on ATI cards but better still on NV cards, they want it running bad on ATI cards but acceptable on NV cards as the majority buy in to the acceptable market first & foremost.

The whole PhysX thing should have made that obvious.
 
Lost Planet 2 & Metro 2033 are the best looking DX11 games right now (both TWIMTBP titles as well ;))

Two perfect examples of how fancy effects like tessellation are not the keys to creating games that look great. How on earth can Metro be such a hog when so much of the detail is lost in the dark! Bizarre. I've never thought it was a particularly good looking game, and boring to boot.

IMO, it's all about artistic design and games like ME2 are a good example of this. Games developers should study the great artists more, then they'll learn how to use light, shadow and colour to real effect.
 
It's a fair point, the techniques used to tessellate do offer diminishing returns, as does any iterative process.

The problem here is that for AMD to state it, shows that they think their rivals perhaps offer better and faster solutions than they can and do.

it should go without saying that any techniques available to devs that intrinsically increase a scenes complexity HAS to reduce the speed at which hardware can render it. The tessellation seen in DX11 will be extrapolating the extra detail based on a less detailed model. Where this is great for me is in scalability, you can suddenly do more than just designing models of different complexities and offering a fixed switch in the menu, you can now alter the complexity of your scene on the fly. However as with any tunable parameters, you have to be sensible with it!

I recently went to a conference where AMD, Intel and NVIDIA (amongst others) presented, just general overviews of their up and coming technology and no matter what AMD did, whether it was re: OpenCL or their CPU road-map, they somehow came across as a bit desperate. I mean their processors actually do very well in the supercomputing world, yet they gave a presentation BEFORE Intel which felt nothing more than a catch-up exercise where their slightly stammering presenter convinced us they were competitive...

They really need to stop talking and start doing again, they have everything at their finger tips and are a strong company yet always seem to come across as slightly desperate underdogs.
 
It's a fair point, the techniques used to tessellate do offer diminishing returns, as does any iterative process.

The problem here is that for AMD to state it, shows that they think their rivals perhaps offer better and faster solutions than they can and do.

it should go without saying that any techniques available to devs that intrinsically increase a scenes complexity HAS to reduce the speed at which hardware can render it. The tessellation seen in DX11 will be extrapolating the extra detail based on a less detailed model. Where this is great for me is in scalability, you can suddenly do more than just designing models of different complexities and offering a fixed switch in the menu, you can now alter the complexity of your scene on the fly. However as with any tunable parameters, you have to be sensible with it!

I recently went to a conference where AMD, Intel and NVIDIA (amongst others) presented, just general overviews of their up and coming technology and no matter what AMD did, whether it was re: OpenCL or their CPU road-map, they somehow came across as a bit desperate. I mean their processors actually do very well in the supercomputing world, yet they gave a presentation BEFORE Intel which felt nothing more than a catch-up exercise where their slightly stammering presenter convinced us they were competitive...

They really need to stop talking and start doing again, they have everything at their finger tips and are a strong company yet always seem to come across as slightly desperate underdogs.

They are the underdogs LOL.
Both of AMDs divisions are smaller than the competition so the only way to even just keep up is to be smart.
 
Yes but the problem is NV is encouraging bad use of tessellation already.

NV is not interested in handling for correct/optimised coding that runs well on ATI cards but better still on NV cards, they want it running bad on ATI cards but acceptable on NV cards as the majority buy in to the acceptable market first & foremost.

The whole PhysX thing should have made that obvious.

This. Rather than having a tessellation game which runs at 40 fps on a Nvidia card and only 30fps on an ATI card they would rather have a game which uses such heavy tessellation that runs at 15 fps on Nvidia cards and 5 fps on AMD so they can claim their card is 300% faster. Point is the game is unplayable on both cards.

There is no way I am playing Metro with dips to 9fps. Yet switch off DOF and tesselation and I can have a constant minimum 60 fps with peaks of over 200fps.
 
This. Rather than having a tessellation game which runs at 40 fps on a Nvidia card and only 30fps on an ATI card they would rather have a game which uses such heavy tessellation that runs at 15 fps on Nvidia cards and 5 fps on AMD so they can claim their card is 300% faster. Point is the game is unplayable on both cards.

There is no way I am playing Metro with dips to 9fps. Yet switch off DOF and tesselation and I can have a constant minimum 60 fps with peaks of over 200fps.

Totally agree. It's like arguing over which turd smells nicer. Hello, it's sh!t - don't smell it at all.
 
This. Rather than having a tessellation game which runs at 40 fps on a Nvidia card and only 30fps on an ATI card they would rather have a game which uses such heavy tessellation that runs at 15 fps on Nvidia cards and 5 fps on AMD so they can claim their card is 300% faster. Point is the game is unplayable on both cards.

There is no way I am playing Metrohandling for correct/optimised coding with dips to 9fps. Yet switch off DOF and tesselation and I can have a constant minimum 60 fps with peaks of over 200fps.

And pretty much what they did which they claimed that NV cards are better at phyxs % in BAA than ATI cards when the fact of the matter to be better than something else at a given task the other has to be able to at least do it in the first place.

ATI cards cant run phyxs so that's a null & void claim in the first place.
 
It's not tessellation and DoF that kills Metro framerates, it's running out of VRAM which does it. I can whack everything up to as high as possible, but as soon as memory use hits 1.5GB on my 480's the framerate takes a dive. Below that and everything is fine.

I'll let you get back to your boring AMD vs NV snoozefest now.
 
I don't agree with any side implementing something to such a degree only because it performs worse on the competition more than the other & gives the consumer overall less performance for what they paid for.

and i dont agree avoiding implementing something that will improve quality only because it performs better on the competition and gives the consumer overall less quality for what they paid for.
 
and i dont agree avoiding implementing something that will improve quality only because it performs better on the competition and gives the consumer overall less quality for what they paid for.

Seeing as the context of this thread was not enough for you & i didn't re-spell out the obvious i will make a correction just for you because anything less than pedantic goes right over your head.

I don't agree with any side implementing something to such a degree with no obvious quality improvement but only because it performs worse on the competition more than the other & gives the consumer overall less performance for what they paid for.
 
They really need to stop talking and start doing again, they have everything at their finger tips and are a strong company yet always seem to come across as slightly desperate underdogs.

This has always been my contention with ATI/AMD they spin politics but rarely put the effort in to see things through to fruition... i.e. they can't put their money where their mouth is... nVidia I deplore their methods but they do get results.

For instance they've been spinning open CL, open GPU physics, tessellation, an open stereo 3D implementation for the best part of 7 years and what do we see for it?
 
This has always been my contention with ATI/AMD they spin politics but rarely put the effort in to see things through to fruition... i.e. they can't put their money where their mouth is... nVidia I deplore their methods but they do get results.

For instance they've been spinning open CL, open GPU physics, tessellation, an open stereo 3D implementation for the best part of 7 years and what do we see for it?

totally agree even drunkenmaster stopped talking about them which is a very bad sign :p
 
It's not tessellation and DoF that kills Metro framerates, it's running out of VRAM which does it. I can whack everything up to as high as possible, but as soon as memory use hits 1.5GB on my 480's the framerate takes a dive. Below that and everything is fine.

I'll let you get back to your boring AMD vs NV snoozefest now.

this link puts the 1gb card against the 2gb card in metro 2033
http://www.hardwarecanucks.com/foru...hire-hd-5870-2gb-toxic-edition-review-18.html
 
This has always been my contention with ATI/AMD they spin politics but rarely put the effort in to see things through to fruition... i.e. they can't put their money where their mouth is... nVidia I deplore their methods but they do get results.

For instance they've been spinning open CL, open GPU physics, tessellation, an open stereo 3D implementations for the best part of 7 years and what do we see for it?

Yes NV get there results at far greater expense time & time again but lets say if NV was in the same financial situation of ATI/AMD over the last couples of years.

Its common to have great ideas but not have the funds to see them through.

But its also easy to push through less efficient ideas & see them through purely because the funds allow you to do so.
 
To be fair the 6xxx GPUs are the first proper effort from AMD rather than ATI and no one can really fault the hardware - tessellation performance aside - and their next gen i looking pretty strong too so if they put the same effort in software side they may turn things around in my estimation.
 
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