**** Original Starcraft 2 Thread ****

[iamtheoneneo]

No offence but nobody here can actually say if anything is overpowered or not. Unless you're in the top 200 or 300 you're not good enough to judge balance. Up to the very highest levels, if you're better than your opponent you will beat him no matter what race he or you are playing. Don't blame imbalance because you're not good enough to win that matchup. I'm terrible vs zerg but that's just because I'm terrible at the game, not because zerg is overpowered.

im not getting into this argument again. my post relates nothing to beating an opponent, but playing as a race.
i can win easily with Z and T for the most part, but when it comes to P its much more of a struggle. P in the early game is shocking for instance and relies far to much on exact shield placement else your a gonna lose to any push (since you only have 3 units to their 6+) so that basically means you lose on 1 incorrect mouse click - hardly balanced their is it.

and im sick and tired of people linking to high grade geeks as some sort of justification of the games playability/balance. they are 200 people out of 10s of thousands who are in a completely different planet to us.
considering we have had 3 patches already that have changed the game, it clearly isnt balanced. People were saying it was balanced two patches ago and look whats happened since then.

i play the game as much as the next average guy and im entitled to an opinion....sorry im not 'pro' enough to have an opinion in your eyes.

 

[Aloreth]

http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/1136961

No race is better than any other race. Protoss at the time period of that article were doing well in the ladder. Terran were winning every tournament outside of Korea. Zerg were winning the GSL. The stats are meaningless.

"these stats are meaningless" rather a bold statement considering blizzard state that they use these stats to monitor the balance in the game. It also states that 5% either side of 50% is acceptable and that the global PvT win rate is 59.8% which means the match up is indeed unbalanced. Just like I thought all along, its not just me struggling against toss. Fingers crossed they will get fixed

 

[Fenris]

Oh get over yourselves guys, if Toss was as overpowered as you all seem to think, there would be 2 things happening, 1, the win rate of PvT would be MUCH higher, and 2, Blizzard would have done something on the PTR to see if it effected that.

Blizzard know allot more about balance than you, and the only thing on the current PTR, i.e the next patch, are 2 BUFFS to protoss, if they were really that OP do you really believe blizzard of all people would buff them further?

SC2 and nearly every RTS game in existence are NEVER balanced perfectly because doing so is nearly impossible unless there is only 1 race or every race has carbon copies of the same units, some get close but it tends to take years to get anywhere near it. There are simply too many parameters and statistics.

Also anyone want to proffer some sort of REASON as to why Protoss are OP? Simply saying "I lose against Toss so they are OP" is not an argument, it's whining, what is OP about protoss, what are they doing against you that is so much more powerful than what your race can do?

I can hazard a guess that whatever you say can be countered with the simple fact you are personally doing something wrong.

Let me say that yes, there may be small imbalances, if you read the article linked above, blizzard state that very thing, however that's what it is, "small imbalances", what you are talking about is game breaking imbalance, which just isn't the case.

 

[Nerusy]

"these stats are meaningless" rather a bold statement considering blizzard state that they use these stats to monitor the balance in the game. It also states that 5% either side of 50% is acceptable and that the global PvT win rate is 59.8% which means the match up is indeed unbalanced. Just like I thought all along, its not just me struggling against toss. Fingers crossed they will get fixed

Nah mate that's crazy, post a replay of your TvP maybe there's something we would be able to help you with.

 

[Fenris]

Nah mate that's crazy, post a replay of your TvP maybe there's something we would be able to help you with.

Or do so on Teamliquid if you want massive analysis as to what's going on.

Starcraft is not a "casual friendly game", if you want to win, you have to put effort into getting better, that means finding out what you are doing wrong and how you can stop doing it.

 

[RobHu]

Toss winrate is pretty high even into low-mid diamond because of builds like 4 gate, cannon rush and proxy stargate.

The game will always be balanced around high level players primarily because they know how to get the best out of their race, rather than newbies that have absolutely no idea what they are doing.

 

[Indie]

Toss winrate is pretty high even into low-mid diamond because of builds like 4 gate, cannon rush and proxy stargate.

The game will always be balanced around high level players primarily because they know how to get the best out of their race, rather than newbies that have absolutely no idea what they are doing.

What Rob said!...

Also, i'll be playing again once i have my real keyboard and mouse back



... Tonight \o/

 

[Aloreth]

Whilst I aint great I certainly aint bad, I am fairly low diamond at the moment. I understand the TvT match up and also the TvZ match up, sometimes i lose and sometimes I win. Both times I understand why I have won / lost.

TvP, if i manage to do significant damage early on whilst getting a 2nd / 3rd up then sometimes i win. If I cant do damage early on then there isnt much point in playing the game, toss 200 armies just roflstomp anything terran can throw at it (i don't think anyone is going to dispute this).

If a toss turtles on 2 bases untill they get their large army up its basically GG.

 

[Indie]

Whilst I aint great I certainly aint bad, I am fairly low diamond at the moment. I understand the TvT match up and also the TvZ match up, sometimes i lose and sometimes I win. Both times I understand why I have won / lost.

TvP, if i manage to do significant damage early on whilst getting a 2nd / 3rd up then sometimes i win. If I cant do damage early on then there isnt much point in playing the game, toss 200 armies just roflstomp anything terran can throw at it (i don't think anyone is going to dispute this).

If a toss turtles on 2 bases untill they get their large army up its basically GG.

Hmm its swings and roundabouts really... While Terran do tend to have an earlier advantage from my experience, with Toss having the late game advantage, Its deffinatly not accurate to say that Toss 200 > Terran 200.. its all about composition. If you have your standard gateway and 4-5 colossi, Terran still only needs MMM/Viking to counter it effectivly. Throw in a Ghost or two and its Game on.

Scouting, Reacting, Composition are key.

 

[Aloreth]

I understand that in theory however in the vast majority of my matches and pro matches, when toss hits 200 its GG, I think QXC said something similar tho not sure i can proove it as I don't remember where i read it .

MMM + Viking is only good if the TOSS is a bit slow, if they focus down the Vikings then the collossus just crushses anything thrown at it. I personally find HT even worse, only chance is where toss a) has no obs b) groups his HT together c) you have ghost + cloak

 

[Indie]

nah, Even i can pull off MMM/Viking micro against Gateway/Colossi and im a Zerg player. Vikings range totally widdles all over them. then just dance the MM while your mvacs heal them.

 

[MikeHunt79]

I need to make more vikings actually, but I've been finding that many protoss seem to often go void-ray or carrier, and the only thing I tend to use to counter it is mass marine! I'm still in bronze though so A-move tends to be enough to kill the opposition sometimes...

Also, is there a way you can make your medivacs follow your MM ball automatically?

 

[Alex74]

I understand that in theory however in the vast majority of my matches and pro matches, when toss hits 200 its GG, I think QXC said something similar tho not sure i can proove it as I don't remember where i read it .

MMM + Viking is only good if the TOSS is a bit slow, if they focus down the Vikings then the collossus just crushses anything thrown at it. I personally find HT even worse, only chance is where toss a) has no obs b) groups his HT together c) you have ghost + cloak

Indie hit the nail on the head really.

wrt HTs, I rely on my HT micro to win games vs terran, and i see some terrans with fantastic ghost play. The more they take down my observers, the more they can outposition me and emp my army. Then it's effectively a group of sitting ducks until i can warp in more templar (which is a significant gas drain! ). It's very possible for terran to outplay a Protoss with High Templar.

wrt colossi, MMM + Viking is good if you have a bigger army in all honesty. Have you got the right number of vikings to take down the collosi without sacrificing from the main body of your MMM force? Do you have enough marauders to do enormous amounts of damage to the count of stalkers and colossi?

If your army is too small, then of course you'll lose. If it's the same size, then it'll come down to upgrades and positioning. Where are you engaging the protoss army?

Zerg has exactly the same problem, if they're facing colossi with say, roach/hydra/infestor/corruptor. Whether they win will depend on how and where they choose to engage the protoss.

 

[Indie]

I need to make more vikings actually, but I've been finding that many protoss seem to often go void-ray or carrier, and the only thing I tend to use to counter it is mass marine! I'm still in bronze though so A-move tends to be enough to kill the opposition sometimes...

Also, is there a way you can make your medivacs follow your MM ball automatically?

not sure, but i tend to A-Move them under a different hotkey to my marines and marauders

so..

1a click 2a click 3a click!

 

[just Scott]

im not getting into this argument again. my post relates nothing to beating an opponent, but playing as a race.
i can win easily with Z and T for the most part, but when it comes to P its much more of a struggle. P in the early game is shocking for instance and relies far to much on exact shield placement else your a gonna lose to any push (since you only have 3 units to their 6+) so that basically means you lose on 1 incorrect mouse click - hardly balanced their is it.

and im sick and tired of people linking to high grade geeks as some sort of justification of the games playability/balance. they are 200 people out of 10s of thousands who are in a completely different planet to us.
considering we have had 3 patches already that have changed the game, it clearly isnt balanced. People were saying it was balanced two patches ago and look whats happened since then.

i play the game as much as the next average guy and im entitled to an opinion....sorry im not 'pro' enough to have an opinion in your eyes.

You can have an opinion all you want, all I'm saying is don't blame the game when we're not at the skill level where the imbalances in the game actually affect us that much. Instead of saying protoss is overpowered, it's more helpful to say I'm struggling against protoss and try fix the problems you have playing against the race.

Protoss are definitely strong when maxed. It's similar to a few months ago when zerg couldn't break terran mech. You just have to abuse the lack of protoss mobility. Terran bio is incredibly mobile. If the protoss has a massive death ball, pick away them from other angles. Lots of people here have played me and they all know I'm super passive, I like to get a massive death ball, expand 100 times and kill you. When I'm doing this I often wonder why the terran isn't just dropping my expansions with marauders and killing my buildings. By the time I get there on a decent map, you can kill a lot of things and get out safely. Doing this makes players make a lot of mistakes which you can take advantage of.

 

[kar]

On the PvT matchup, it's kinda tricky, because us P players will **** and moan that Terran are ridiculous.

And vice versa.

Sadly it's simply down to the fact early game, Terran are much stronger than Protoss. And late game, Protoss are ridiculously strong vs Terran.

Part of terrans problem is they are so used to the mobility of bio, they don't do mech well. I still don't think the mech options really match up for cost vs what we get as protoss (and the flexibility we have in the late game) - but not many have really tried all that hard yet. Like us protoss moaning about the marauder. We can't fight the stupid thing, so we turtle to the god damn colossi (which we hate having to do trust me) and then we can come out and play.

But even so, it's soooo hard against competent Terrans early on and into the mid game.

I kinda hope Blizzard do something to buff protoss gate units and nerf colossi and templars (in terms of cost and supply rather than damage) in the mid/late game. Make em even more expensive than they are now. I don't mind.

Terran bio basically is stupid in this game, which is why a lot of terrans suck when they meet up against a better, or at least similarly skilled protoss player. We simply will not come out and fight until we have our colossi. And once we have them, you're stuffed because all you can do is make marines and marauders.

I think part of the fix will also need to see marines/marauders somehow toned down, and latter tech terran units more effective. Personally if you buff the stalker a little bit (or at least make upgrades scale like they do for roaches and marauders), then terrans should get a fearsome battle cruiser back.

And a nerf to bio, means tanks should go back to what they were before 1.1.

 

[Aloreth]

Thanks for the comments kar, I think i agree with everything that you have said. My problem with the fact that terran bio is pretty strong early game is that toss can 100% neutralize it on any ramp that has a map simply by using a FF. As terran you simply cant afford to poke up the ramp as a FF will cut your army in half and stalkers will pick it to pieces. It always feels like the FF lasts for a hell of a long time as well (I think the exact time is around 12 minutes.....well thats what it feels like )

The only thing I really manage against toss is to get an expansion up before him and just pray he hasn't hidden 2 of his 4 gates from me.

 

[MikeHunt79]

not sure, but i tend to A-Move them under a different hotkey to my marines and marauders

so..

1a click 2a click 3a click!

Thanks, I think that may be the way forward. I have made the mistake of moving everything in one group, and my medivacs would go ahead and suicide into the enemy if I take my eye off them!

This game really tests your multitasking, I've got a long way to go though, I'm still doing silly things like getting supply blocked, so I've got plenty of room for improvement...

 

[just Scott]

Streaming some games:

www.justin.tv/scottyyy

comments about the quality/audio/lag on the stream would be very very helpful.

 

[Fenris]

comments about the quality/audio/lag on the stream would be very very helpful.

Solid quality even when expanded, been watching for a few minutes, no lag so far apart from a bit of what looks like game lag on your end, sound quality fine, could do with maybe some music in the background.

Oh one more thing.


YOU HAVE NOT ENOUGH MINERALS.