'Cap' on immigration is no longer in place

[Destination]

So despite promises, nothing has changed

I'd say more along the lines of, nothing can change.
It seems ministerial decisions are all now illegal and can be challenged, to actually get something done you have to pass an act of parliment. This is occurring and the cap will come in next April as planned and voted in.

Minsiters are now legally incapable of short term solutions and fixes.
So it seems anyway, there always appear to be some lobbyist group or some legal aid case that takes out govt policy, generally involving european human rights legioslation that the UK incoporated into law under labour. Thanks Tony.

 

[Orcish-Horde]

DO you have any idea how much money you would waste with that scheme? I would be furious if the government tore down the barriers to entry for one of the most important and respected professions and squandered millions of pounds on half- training people who 'didn't cut it'.

Wasted on training the local population? As there is no scheme what makes you think there would be half - trained people, there would be means of removing the unsuitable early on if they were not weeded out at application point?

Why do you restrict it to NHS? Why not everyone?

You would have been weeded out due to lack of comprehension.

What's wrong with the system in place where if you fulfill a few baseline requirements, you can go and pay a nominal amount per year to attend University and train to become whatever you want? Anyone is allowed to participate you know The Government still pays 90% or so of the cost for doctor training you know..

It clearly doesn't work or we would not have skill shortages.

At the end of the day, if people want to change their lives, THEY should do something about it, not expect Government to. Companies will choose British workers over migrants anyway as the visa process is long and expensive.

Government is involved in every aspect of our lives, every penny we earn they view as theirs, they count every one so they can claim their share. Until they stop that it is what is expected of Government and business.

 

[Destination]

Good side effect of this is that nursing homes can restock on staff in this winter of shortage

 

[eatcustard]

Yes and that is what happens. You won't find a single welder in the country on a work permit from outside the EU I promise you. You have just shown your lack of understanding about what a 'Skilled' worker is.

There is some element of skill to it, but it is nothing like the level required for a HSMP or Tier 1 visa. You are looking at scientists, doctors, professors, and people with a specific skill that cannot be sourced locally.

Near where I work there are 3 Indian welders (yes they are born in India and have a work permit)

Nice lads

But I do understand "highly skilled" workers ie Doc's, Proffs etc and I dont mind them working here.
but...


...the judge killed the temp cap for skilled workers, so that care homes can have workers come in, how is that a high skill??

 

[deuse]

I don't think welders and machine operators count as 'Highly Skilled' somehow, hence are exempt from this anyway...

But the gov says a Sports person or a Religious person(priest ect) are Highly Skilled they are in tier 1 and 2.

It's just silly the way it's being done.

 

[Dolph]

The cap was and is a bad policy, there is no sense in arbitrarily deciding whether an individual should be able to come to the UK based on how many other separate individuals have already come.

That does not mean we should have unrestricted immigration, or that there isn't a need for change, although some of the less well publicised changes (such as the increase in annual earnings required for a working visa changing from around £20k to around £40k per annum) are far better ideas to reduce the number of working immigrants and drive a high skill immigrant with high net value population.

 

[Bes]

Wasted on training the local population? As there is no scheme what makes you think there would be half - trained people, there would be means of removing the unsuitable early on if they were not weeded out at application point?

Because of course people would drop out, not be deemed suitable, etc. Do you even know how much it would involve just to run courses to get these people up to the required level (i.e. A-level) of understanding in Biology, Chemistry, Maths, etc to even be able to start such a course? Totally crazy idea. If people want to become doctors, they should go to University like you or I would have to.

You would have been weeded out due to lack of comprehension.

I'll ignore the jibe. But the fact you have to resort to that pretty much sums up your understanding of the situation.
When you say NHS, who are you talking about? Nurses, Paramedics, the toilet cleaner? The HR manager? If any of the former (or indeed the latter) want to retrain as a doctor, there is nothing stopping them as things stand.

It clearly doesn't work or we would not have skill shortages.

It does work like that. Would you care to explain how it works? The reason we have shortages is probably due to either a lack of places on med courses (which your above ridiculous solution would not help), or that there are simply not enough people around who are good enough/ want to read medicine.

Government is involved in every aspect of our lives, every penny we earn they view as theirs, they count every one so they can claim their share. Until they stop that it is what is expected of Government and business.

This is a totally ridiculous statement. I actually think you're just baiting. You are a free person, you can apply to University to do whatever you want, go to college, etc. Anything with a heavier government involvement starts leaning towards communism.

 

[Orcish-Horde]

Because of course people would drop out, not be deemed suitable, etc. Do you even know how much it would involve just to run courses to get these people up to the required level (i.e. A-level) of understanding in Biology, Chemistry, Maths, etc to even be able to start such a course? Totally crazy idea. If people want to become doctors, they should go to University like you or I would have to.

What makes you think they would not go to University? And yes it costs to train people for highly skilled roles but in the long run it pays to do so.

I'll ignore the jibe. But the fact you have to resort to that pretty much sums up your understanding of the situation.

It was not a jibe you clearly showed a lack of comprehension.

When you say NHS, who are you talking about? Nurses, Paramedics, the toilet cleaner? The HR manager? If any of the former (or indeed the latter) want to retrain as a doctor, there is nothing stopping them as things stand.

It doesn't matter who so long as they have the ablity, at the moment there is a lot stopping them. Morgages, family and other bills, the only people able at the moment to drop all and retrain are singletons with not a care in the world and the unemployed if they do it on the fly.

It does work like that. Would you care to explain how it works? The reason we have shortages is probably due to either a lack of places on med courses (which your above ridiculous solution would not help), or that there are simply not enough people around who are good enough/ want to read medicine..

Lack of young people who want to spend the best part of their life with their face stuck in a med book or more importantly who can afford to do that.

This is a totally ridiculous statement. I actually think you're just baiting. You are a free person, you can apply to University to do whatever you want, go to college, etc. Anything with a heavier government involvement starts leaning towards communism.

So why are our University not providing us with enought skilled workers and yes I am baiting?

 

[semi-pro waster]

Never heard of maggie thatcher? she did it. Yep you HAD to do things in her day.

I'm a little young to have lived through it but wasn't there massive unemployment also so to say you had to do things in her day is possibly pushing the boundaries a shade. Maybe the changes she wrought were necessary and maybe there were ways of doing them better - that's another debate though.

I'd say more along the lines of, nothing can change.
It seems ministerial decisions are all now illegal and can be challenged, to actually get something done you have to pass an act of parliment. This is occurring and the cap will come in next April as planned and voted in.

Minsiters are now legally incapable of short term solutions and fixes.
So it seems anyway, there always appear to be some lobbyist group or some legal aid case that takes out govt policy, generally involving european human rights legioslation that the UK incoporated into law under labour. Thanks Tony.

And yet in many ways I'm rather glad that ministers can't go for short-termism quite as easily, that suggests a level of oversight that may not always have been present. It's not always going to present brilliant solutions but equally if it keeps out other bad solutions to problems then maybe it serves a purpose.

Acts of Parliament can still be illegal or at least incompatible with our rights/obligations as members of the EU. Passing an act doesn't necessarily alter the problems with the idea or it's general incompatibility with EU law should that be part of the issue.

So why are our University not providing us with enought skilled workers and yes I am baiting?

You might want to be a bit careful here, if you're admitting that you are baiting then you may wish to note that trolling is prohibited in the FAQ.

 

[Sudden]

It doesn't matter who so long as they have the ablity, at the moment there is a lot stopping them. Morgages, family and other bills, the only people able at the moment to drop all and retrain are singletons with not a care in the world and the unemployed if they do it on the fly.

But this isn't going to change is it? Unless you're proposing that not only the government provide them with free education but also cover their bills and help out the family while these people train? I do hope not because that is completely unrealistic :s

 

[Bes]

What makes you think they would not go to University? And yes it costs to train people for highly skilled roles but in the long run it pays to do so.

So if they are going to go to University, what are you proposing exactly? That we take them out of the workforce for x years, pay all their living costs whilst they are training, put them through a 'pre med- school' course to get their sciences, maths, etc up to standard, and then put them through a FULL med- school course? All at the taxpayer's expense and charge them zero tuition fees? That is preposterous. If not, please explain.

Migration of these individuals is massively cheaper, and they pay taxes from day one.

It was not a jibe you clearly showed a lack of comprehension.

It's called being realistic, see above.

It doesn't matter who so long as they have the ablity, at the moment there is a lot stopping them. Morgages, family and other bills, the only people able at the moment to drop all and retrain are singletons with not a care in the world and the unemployed if they do it on the fly.

See above

Lack of young people who want to spend the best part of their life with their face stuck in a med book or more importantly who can afford to do that.

Or lack of places on med courses? I don't think there is a shortage of applicants.

So why are our University not providing us with enought skilled workers and yes I am baiting?

Migration, the places on courses offered by universities, and most importantly, the massive lure of the finance industry, which is HUGE in this country, and sucks in a lot of otherwise- doctors, scientists, etc. We are not going to start forcing people into certain careers, therefore immigration of those with the skills is needed. I suggest you do some basic reading around the subject.

 

[Duff-Man]

It always been business getting staff on the cheap.

In the "highly skilled workers" field, there is no real difference in salary whether you're from the UK, elsewhere in the EU, or from further afield. Salaries are related to the skillset of the individual, and how much value they can add to the company / project / University.

We're not talking about factory workers here... It isn't "getting staff on the cheap", it's finding someone to fill a highly specialised role. For that you often need to look globally.

 

[[TW]Fox]

Never heard of maggie thatcher? she did it. Yep you HAD to do things in her day.

What so people were forced against their will to train for a specific skill with requirements you'll find for something like a doctor?

 

[[TW]Fox]

If the government placed an internal add in the NHS, other government bodys and private employers, offering trainee doctor places.

These places are available now. Go and train if you want to do it?

In the understanding that if they didn't cut it, they could return to their old job.

How would that work? Return to your old job 7 years later because you couldnt cut it after 7 years of training?

Just lol.

There is only a skill shortage in the UK due to government and employers not having in place training programs to meet THEIR skill needs.

Rubbish, there is a skill shortage in the UK because people lack either the capacity or the motivation to train for properly skilled jobs.

 

[Morlock]

The people who genuinely want to work are out numbered by those who are happy on benefits ten to one.

Did you just pluck a number out of thin air and state that as fact? You will find that it is closer to the other way round, workers outnumbering the unemployed by around 10-1.

 

[LabR@t]

Good side effect of this is that nursing homes can restock on staff in this winter of shortage

LOL I would rather top myself than end up in a home being looked after by jonny foreigner, I suspect lots of high paying people in these care homes hate the fact they are being looked after by non-british nurses and for the money they have to pay its scandalous.

 

[Sudden]

LOL I would rather top myself than end up in a home being looked after by jonny foreigner, I suspect lots of high paying people in these care homes hate the fact they are being looked after by non-british nurses and for the money they have to pay its scandalous.

Are you suggesting that if the non-British nurse is more skilled than the British nurse, the people in the care homes would prefer being looked after by someone less skilled? Or are you implying that just because they are non-British, they are less skilled?

 

[Dolph]

LOL I would rather top myself than end up in a home being looked after by jonny foreigner, I suspect lots of high paying people in these care homes hate the fact they are being looked after by non-british nurses and for the money they have to pay its scandalous.

Irrational prejudice alert!!!!

Just remember, the immigration debate isn't being hijacked by racists trying to present their views in a more acceptable light in any way at all...

 

[deuse]

What so people were forced against their will to train for a specific skill with requirements you'll find for something like a doctor?

You either went for retraing or you would be sent to clean up canals and such like or dole stopped.
There was lots of retraing courses all free but no doctor ones.
The problem was that the people sent to clean up the UK done it in 2 years so they had no work either.
I retrained as a Horizontal miller, but then they invented the CNC

Maggie even paid people to move to other parts of the UK and find them housing if they got a job there.

And no I don't like maggie the Hun.

 

[LabR@t]

Rubbish, there is a skill shortage in the UK because people lack either the capacity or the motivation to train for properly skilled jobs.

Utter rubbish and you know it.

Government/business do not want to spend the money training people a generation ago we had a superb apprenticeship scheme that was scrapped to save money. Universities would rather have foreign students as they can charge them more money. Its self defeating for businesses anyway if the people born and bred here are not getting trained up for the higher paid jobs they as a result have less disposable income to spend on the very services/products they have to offer.

There are people on this forum who seem to think that the masses of unemployed or low paid are not trainable, lazy, stupid but the fact is a lot of them are just not given the chance to excel purely because of money not being there for them to train/educate. I guess being a PC hardware site forum there would tend to be a higher percentage or relatively better off people and perhaps some would do themselves a great service to not tar those less wealthy than themselves with the same brush.