Virgin or BT Infinity?

Guy im on virgins 20mb service and its been terrible.
I wanted to express my views on virgins system and hopefully pick up some good arguments on why BT Infinity is bad.
Virgin are oversubscribing their services in too many areas. It is a known fact not a opinion. Visit their forums and you can see all you need to know.

I know BT hasnt had a great rep with their adsl and adsl2+ services especially their customer services but you got to remember BT Infinity specifically is completely different!

Its Fiber To The Cabinet (FTTC) guys so you cannot compare it at all to the ADSL services!

The tiny old school copper wires coming all the way from the exchange has been removed and replaced by fiber optics! Holding a lot more bandwidth than the thick copper wires underground for virgin.
From the cabinet to your house...yes it is the same old copper wirings u see above you but at a much shorter distance the degradation of the signal is smaller.
Another thing is that the signal is less interfered with rain, lightning etc etc that interfer with copper wirings.

Virgin was awsome in the terms of the amount of bandwidth possible but they always had a issue with their upstream system.
The down channels have loads of bandwidth stretching from around 100MHz to about 1GHz which is shared with the TV channels but the up channels stayed limited by the original infrastucture.

To sort it out they have to also invest a lot into replacing the upstream path on every node out there. Their best option is to go FTTH (to the home not cabnet, well they can do cabinet but then they have to rent BT's telephone wires...come to think of it think ofcom said they have to due to competition regulations!)

I advise people to look up Virgins infastructure and the issue with their upstream system.

The future atm is BT Infinity.

About the 300GB cap...its a lot of bandwidth!
One 720p tvshow is around 1.2GB and a 720p movie 7.2GB
Call Of Duty:Black Ops on XBox360 and PS3 I think (please correct me if im wrong) 1gig every two hours approx when ->HOSTING<- a game.
But there is a hope BT will eventually not include gaming traffic and general surfing as part of the usage cap!

10GB a day approx I think is a lot!

Lastly is that the 300gig limit wont stay there for long i believe. I think they will produce a better and more reliable system similar to virgins system but one that works where p2p is throttled during peak times and game traffic is allowed to pass through. Due to the capabilities of their fiber otpic structure the throttling hopefully is much less than the amount virgin throttle.

Cant get BT infinity? I say go with O2 rolling contract if its coming to you soon! You can check by going to their website. Please also note that even though their systems may say you will only get maybe 14MB out of the 40MB its usually very inaccurate!


Please if you think im wrong in any of the information I have read and put in this post let me know so I can inform people correctly!

Thanks!
 
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You posed it as a question but it reads more like an advert. BT Infinity hasn't been around long enough to be able to say whether they are any better at managing demand than Virgin are. It also massively differs by location and what competing services are available - it's not a blanket choice one way or the other.
 
Your post isn't really clear on what the benefits are for going with BT. Plus it implies that Virgin isn't using fibre, when it is. It's using FTTC, which is what BT are just rolling out now, is I not?

I may be slightly biased as I've been with Telewest since 2000 but the cable service has generally been reliable. I don't have much choice as ADSL would get me a 1.5Mb connection and BT have no plans to rollout fiber where I live!!
 
Your right, it is a bit like an advert hehe.
Iv been told by some enginners in my local also looked up online that the areas that offer 100meg or 50meg have FTTC but most of virgin is fiber to the exchange. Yes this isnt a solid fact i know. I didnt explain that properly in my post sorry.
I just dont want people falling for virgin fiber service because its being compared to bts adsl. Its hell living in a over subscribed area!
 
I personally love my VM 50mb connection. I always get 50mb no matter what time of day, and I have had very little downtime in the 10+ years I've had a cable connection.
 
Ill be going Infinity. Simply because I can't get 20 or 50MB Virgin where I am. I had 20MB Virgin at my old house at Uni, and have to say I loved the speed I got with downloads. However, gaming seemed to be throttled heavily when searching for servers, and the daytime download limit was a bit annoying at times, especially when there was a new patch or something to download.
 
It may be worth mentioning for BT's service FTTH; the ports will also be getting changed as well as the E-Side. Some of these ports are really really old and should have been replaced in the 80's/90's - most towns and cities have already had these replaced so it's just a small percentage who are still using the older models in rural areas mostly.

I used to work for BT on various contracts (I might even be going back again to do another one actually) some of these ports are just as important as the quality and bandwidth of the line. The connectors are as important as the connections and can be prone to wear and tear. I have seen some which have been black connectors (literally THAT old and weathered they don't make a very good connection).

Some parts of southern land (especially london) do not even use ports per se, as they have been modernised but they still call them "ports". Mainly in the North of England and Scotland will see the most improvement in speed once it's all rolled out.

Cannot wait for it to come to Newcastle / Gateshead. Really interested to see it in action.

*Edit* Oops - My bad - that used to typing it now.
 
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A little off topic but hopefully not too much.

I looked into Infinity around October time and was told it would be available January. Checking the site again now, it will not be available now until late March. Anyone else had anything similar?

Mike
 
same here. originally it was planned for september than january and now march. the most annoying part is i had to find out myself about them delaying the service even though i've registered my interest several times and spoken to them on the phone. bit fed up really and thinking i might give virgin a call instead.
 
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Nymins said:
BT Infinity takes into account the distance to the green cabinet. Not the distance to your exchange.
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Are you sure? We were trained on optical fibre and were told it is similar to ADSL. It still using the established standards (Connection Route) / standard backend to get the connection.

The connection will only be as fast to the BRAS based on the connection from the backbone to the exchange . From there contention, distance from the exchange, line quality to the cab, the quality of the "ports" but mentioned previously some places like london are not really using "ports" per se, the quality of the connectors in the cab, line quality to the home, quality of the home wiring, with REN no longer being valid.

Basically the same D-Side, E-Side with different distribution cable for the E-Side. The upgrade to the ports at the exchange (required to support the extra bandwidth and throughput that the cab will need) and upgrade to the connectors in the cab (if required - usually will be considering it's fibre) being optional. With REN in the home no longer being taking into account.

The cabs will be getting retrofitted or completely upgraded if they need to. Probably the former rather than the latter except in really desolite areas.

BT trained me, but they could always be wrong. :D "the connection will only be as fast as the slowest link" as my instructor once said. My BT instructor was worried that a contention ratio or a very bandwidth hungary customer will eat everyone else's bandwidth and cause slow speeds for everyone else. It used a pie analogy, the pie is only soo big. Plus it mirrors Virgin medias practices on their own network fair use.

Only part I am worried about is BT Vision on fibre or even the remote possibility of it. ;)

Most of the kit is actually good, well better than good really. Some bits of kit are exceptonal, especially the class of optical fibre.
 
Im with BT, and we're on the limit between the exchange, however we pay for 8mb, granted i dont expect to get that however, my best download speed (i.e DL a mod) is 55kbs, and as BT seem to think its alright all be it im speaking to someone in india then if i had the choice id try to switch to VM.
 
Jeza said:
Im with BT, and we're on the limit between the exchange, however we pay for 8mb, granted i dont expect to get that however, my best download speed (i.e DL a mod) is 55kbs, and as BT seem to think its alright all be it im speaking to someone in india then if i had the choice id try to switch to VM.
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Ouch... Very Ouch.
 
Hi jake interesting stuff, a few questions if you don't mind:

jake108 said:
Are you sure? We were trained on optical fibre and were told it is similar to ADSL. It still using the established standards (Connection Route) / standard backend to get the connection.
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If there is congestion beyond the D-Side on ADSL, will FTTC also be effected?

jake108 said:
My BT instructor was worried that a contention ratio or a very bandwidth hungary customer will eat everyone else's bandwidth and cause slow speeds for everyone else.
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That suggests one of the links in the chain is only 40Mb/s wide, that can't be right can it?

jake108 said:
it mirrors Virgin medias practices on their own network fair use.
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In what way? As far as I know virgins traffic shaping works different to bt's.

jake108 said:
Only part I am worried about is BT Vision on fibre
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Why would you be worried?

jake108 said:
Most of the kit is actually good, well better than good really. Some bits of kit are exceptonal, especially the class of optical fibre.
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That's good to hear.
 
John24 said:
Quote:Originally Posted by jake108
My BT instructor was worried that a contention ratio or a very bandwidth hungary customer will eat everyone else's bandwidth and cause slow speeds for everyone else.
Click to expand...
That suggests one of the links in the chain is only 40Mb/s wide, that can't be right can it?
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yeah that cant be right surely:confused:

you're right about the backend effecting the speed but do you know what kind of material for the optics they are using? or even better the attenuation for the fiber?

oh and are they using line profiling on infinity?
 
John24 said:
Hi jake interesting stuff, a few questions if you don't mind:
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Yeah sure I will try to answer them the best I can. Please note this does not represent the views or express opinions of BT Group PLC or any of it's affiliates. This is just a personal view of a contracted - previously and ongoing contractor. Therefore this post should be taken with a massive pinch of salt, sugar or flavorful grain of your choice.

John24 said:
If there is congestion beyond the D-Side on ADSL, will FTTC also be effected?
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As beyond - as above the D-Side? FTTC has design goals to vastly reduce or in most places completely eliminate this over subscribed areas of the current implementation. The best way to think of this is comparing to Virgin Media as it was described to me; it makes the most sense:

In some areas Virgin Media is the bees knees where over subscription has not occurred; where the network is over-subscribed you get slow speeds, high pings. It's not all about throughput and prioritisation of traffic. Other factors include the quality of the equipment, virtual + cloned ports (where over subscription has occurred and the link literally cannot accept anymore active connections without a potential higher contention ratio). I cannot comment on VM practices or how they would deal with this as I do not work for VM. :)

If Infinity was the FINAL solution for broadband we would run into the similar issues again (the same as we do with ADSL atm). Wouldn't have a time scale so no questions on that. Plus the new network IMHO is certainly capable of A LOT more than 40mbit/s.


John24 said:
That suggests one of the links in the chain is only 40Mb/s wide, that can't be right can it?
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Nope, it's very difficult to understand (hence the instructor + a very long "powerpointed to death" presentation); lets say you have 100 customers on one cab, each receiving the theoretical maximum of 40mbit/s. Assuming this you would believe the Exchange to the cab would have 4,000mbit/s bandwidth? This is not the case, as in some cases it may be lower than 4,000mbit/s between the exchange and cab. As the fibre is certainly capable of a lot more than 40mbit/s and the backend kit is capable of a lot more than this, I sincerely doubt we will be hit by this in years. Unless everyone in a certain area signed up to BT Infinity of course. That IMHO wouldn't happen, would be funny to see it though. Pretty sure a fair number of people would not switch to BT for their own reasons. It's just a practical improbability IMHO.

John24 said:
In what way? As far as I know virgins traffic shaping works different to bt's.
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I will expand on this. Virgin Media learned a lot of lessons when dealing with fibre with a large number of customers. BT has not. Fair use does not necessarily mean traffic shaping. I was referring to fair use as in bandwidth allowance. If BT did not limit bandwidth per customer then IMHO it would be open to abuse. Both BT and Virgin know this from their past experiences with ADSL.

John24 said:
Why would you be worried?
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Never personally been a fan of BT Vision. The box scares me. Used to be part of an group where BT Vision errors were fast and furious. A lot of upset people with the new "free" box that just refused to work due to an invalid BBIP. Certain parts of BT are not allowed to talk to other parts of BT due to anti competition laws.

Sadly one part of BT was forced to blame another part of BT and vice versa. Upsetting and infuriating the customers. BT Open Reach <> BT Wholesale <> BT Retail.

TBO work as a business and fix the problem. Stop blaming each other over silly "I cannot talk to this department who can fix the fault otherwise we MIGHT get sued" mentality. It's THE one area I cannot stand. I understand why we have anti-competition laws but it just seriously grinds on me. Customer is first, fixing the problem and providing the service is first. OFCOM has a major problem with that.

John24 said:
That's good to hear.
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Yeah it's neat kit.
 
tlrBeta said:
A little off topic but hopefully not too much.

I looked into Infinity around October time and was told it would be available January. Checking the site again now, it will not be available now until late March. Anyone else had anything similar?

Mike
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same here mate, altho the cabinet at the end of my street is now shiney green and i saw some engineers poking around inside. Last few days, the ground around it has been dug up as well. Should ask teh dudes working there what they are doing and to give the lines going to my house some extra love :)
 
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