The DANGERS of the Nurburgring

Lethagized · 5 Feb 2011 at 16:25

I've lifted this off an RX-7 forum from a regular ring visitor. Thought it might make people think before they decide to go

Max said:
In the last few years UK insurers have started to wince at the thought of the Nurburgring and specifically Touristenfahrten days or TF days. These are when you go up to the barrier and pay €24 to do you best at beating Jeremy Clarkson. Vans, track cars, £400 volvos’ and Bugatti Veyrons could be out on track with you.

UK and EU laws requires you to have 3rd party cover for European driving from your insurance company, that’s that sorted then, lets go to the Ring!

Er no…

The insurers and the underwriters can and have excluded the Ring in name or via “non restricted toll roads", "prepared course” or similar wording. They argue that the 'intention' of the insurance wording is to convey that it is not intended for any form of driving above the norm, even if your wording is vague and appears to not exclude it.

- German road traffic law and the circuit's 'General Conditions' require third party insurance as a minimum.
- UK and European law requires your insurer to cover you third party only anywhere in the EU where that is a legal requirement.
- Your insurance contract probably contains a clause allowing the insurer a right to recover claims it's required to pay by law. Check yours, more than likely its in there.
- Insurers may rely on the aforementioned to sue you to recover a claim they pay.

In basic terms, every UK driver is legally covered third party only; but you may be personally liable to pay any claim settled by your insurer. This is not a very satisfactory state of affairs and in the absence of a test case every individual case is dealt with on its own merits.

Base fee for attendance of armco truck: €150
Removing damaged armco: €10/metre (x2 or x3 or x4 for multiple-height sections)
Replacement armco: €31/metre (x2 or x3 for double/triple height)
Removing damaged armco posts: €5.10 each
Replacing armco post: €39 each
Safety car attendance: €82 per 30 mins (car + 2 people)
Recovery truck: €190 (inc VAT)
Hospital stay & air ambulance: Let's just say you need to have a deep wallet, also everything except the recovery truck is then subject to 19% VAT.

None of this takes into account the possibility of a GT3 RS and M3 also hitting the barrier due to dropped oil from your car, or because of your crash, or the biker that was airlifted to hospital from sliding on your oil or swerving to avoid your crash. All will have to be paid for out of your pocket as you normal insurance won't cover it and neither will track day insurance.

These bills are life changing and may require you to pay up or fight a large UK insurer in court over an exclusion in your policy that you pleaded you weren’t aware of… Good luck with that!

Recently a GT3 turned in on a Nissan GTR into a left hander, the Nissan GTR was over taking on the left (correct German law) and got squeezed against the curb and went over that and the rough ground at speed. No contact took place but the GT3 driver is facing a £14,000 non contact bill for damage to the GTR.

The alternative is to do a closed private track day on the Ring. They require you to get additional insurance cover for a track day event. This is 1st party cover which will be fine because everyone else will have 1st party cover (knock for knock policy).

My advice is:

Ignorance is no excuse to plead to insurance companies
Contact them and ask if you are covered
If you hear the bad news from your insurers, stick to private track days for safer controlled insured driving if you are from the UK. That way you can enjoy the track without any fear looming in the background.

I hope this helps

Joshy · 5 Feb 2011 at 16:56

[TW]Fox;18398243 said:
What? Looks like pretty decent and sound advice to me.

'Don't go because you might crash' isn't what I'd call sound advice.

I've spoken to seasoned ringers before about this and the consensus is to treat it just like any other 'track day', I.E you are not insured and you should drive as such. That's pretty much common sense, is it not?

Lethagized · 5 Feb 2011 at 17:14

Joshy said:
'Don't go because you might crash' isn't what I'd call sound advice.

I've spoken to seasoned ringers before about this and the consensus is to treat it just like any other 'track day', I.E you are not insured and you should drive as such. That's pretty much common sense, is it not?

Nobody said "don't go", and nobody implied it either. It's just a 'reminder' of how much things can cost if it all goes wrong. I certainly wouldn't treat it like any other track day either. It demands more respect than any of the uk tracks.

It can cost a ton load in money if things go wrong on the ring compared to a uk track, and i think 'treating it like any other track day' is a very stupid idiotic thing to do.

Joshy · 5 Feb 2011 at 17:19

RobRX-7 said:
and i think 'treating it like any other track day' is a very stupid idiotic thing to do.

And what exactly are you supposed to do instead? Not go or take out track day insurance that is going to set you back more than the rest of the trip combined?

Lethagized · 5 Feb 2011 at 17:35

Joshy said:
And what exactly are you supposed to do instead? Not go or take out track day insurance that is going to set you back more than the rest of the trip combined?

If you read the quote from max, it says at the end

"stick to private track days for safer controlled insured driving if you are from the UK. That way you can enjoy the track without any fear looming in the background"

Kenai · 5 Feb 2011 at 17:40

To be fair, because it's also a 'public toll road' or some such term rather than a track, i'd imagine a fair few people assume that their standard insurance policy covers them still.

dsb · 5 Feb 2011 at 17:57

When i lived in Germany i used to visit a lot and done a fair few laps, you cant treat it like a race track, you have to treat it like a fast one way road, there's to many people on there just to say they have done it, to many bikes who use a completely different drive style and use the track in a different way than cars. Ive seen some amassing driving and some awful driving on the track. I've seen an Aston Martin on the back of an ADAC truck in a complete mess, I've been over taken by a bike only to then go past him about a minute later watching him trying to pull it out the armco.

So no dont treat it like a track day as there are people there who dont have the experience to drive like there on a track.

Joshy · 5 Feb 2011 at 18:17

[TW]Fox;18398996 said:
Can you afford the life changing potential costs should the worst happen?

I can't.

And this is why I say it makes sense to treat it similarly to a UK Track day - I.E, you're not insured and drive as such.

I could have very easily picked up a life changing bill or injury on monday when I was pounding Brands, but a track day is not a competitive event, I was there for fun and I drove right up until I felt comfortable and no further. Low and behold I've still got my health and have got money in my pocket - Why can this sort of attitude not be adopted for the Ring?

It's all good saying that it isn't the same, but in what way is it not? In basic terms it doesn't matter if you collect a 911 on your local track or at the ring, at the end of the day the bill stops with you and not an insurance company. Granted, the armco/track closure/recovery bills are higher, but in basic principal it is the same sort of deal.

[TW]Fox · 5 Feb 2011 at 18:19

Joshy said:
And this is why I say it makes sense to treat it similarly to a UK Track day - I.E, you're not insured and drive as such.

Because that guarantees you won't crash, or your car won't fail and drop fluids, or whatever.

I could have very easily picked up a life changing bill or injury on monday when I was pounding Brands, but a track day is not a competitive event, I was there for fun and I drove right up until I felt comfortable and no further. Low and behold I've still got my health and have got money in my pocket - Why can this sort of attitude not be adopted for the Ring?

Because the ring is different. You had no insurance at Brands and it was not subject to the Road Traffic Act. Your insurer *is* obligated to provide third party cover on the ring - so if you do cause an accident, your insurer must pay out. But then they can sue you to recover the cost of meeting the claim.

This won't happen at a normal trackday.

It's all good saying that it isn't the same, but in what way is it not? In basic terms it doesn't matter if you collect a 911 on your local track or at the ring, at the end of the day the bill stops with you and not an insurance company. Granted, the armco/track closure/recovery bills are higher, but in basic principal it is the same sort of deal.

It's nothing like the same sort of deal.

dsb · 5 Feb 2011 at 18:25

Joshy said:
And this is why I say it makes sense to treat it similarly to a UK Track day - I.E, you're not insured and drive as such.

I could have very easily picked up a life changing bill or injury on monday when I was pounding Brands, but a track day is not a competitive event, I was there for fun and I drove right up until I felt comfortable and no further. Low and behold I've still got my health and have got money in my pocket - Why can this sort of attitude not be adopted for the Ring?

It's all good saying that it isn't the same, but in what way is it not? In basic terms it doesn't matter if you collect a 911 on your local track or at the ring, at the end of the day the bill stops with you and not an insurance company. Granted, the armco/track closure/recovery bills are higher, but in basic principal it is the same sort of deal.

Doing a lap of the ring and doing a track day are so far apart its unreal, a track day is an organised event with structure, guides, and briefs with people in a similar mind set to you with cars in good condition, there for an afternoon of fun, the ring has random visitors turning up knowing nothing about the ring and deciding to take there 4x4 or camper van round just to say they have done it, even you gran could turn up in her car with the budget tyres she got from dodgy Joes garage, and breaks that have never been checked or tyre pressures checked or in fact anything. If you could look at the stats for accidents, i bet track days have much lower % than the ring.

Joshy · 5 Feb 2011 at 18:29

[TW]Fox;18399075 said:
Because that guarantees you won't crash, or your car won't fail and drop fluids, or whatever.

The vast majority of incidents on track days happen when people drive outside their ability for whatever reason. Not driving like an idiot goes a long way to prevent bad things from happening.

[TW]Fox;18399075 said:
You had no insurance at Brands and it was not subject to the Road Traffic Act. Your insurer *is* obligated to provide third party cover on the ring - so if you do cause an accident, your insurer must pay out. But then they can sue you to recover the cost of meeting the claim.

How is that any different? By even your own words at the end of the day in both cases *YOU* end up footing the bill, just in one situation it goes threw an insurance company before the bill lands at your door. In the other you've got to explain to the nice man who's car you've just hit how you are going to pay him back

[TW]Fox;18399075 said:
It's nothing like the same sort of deal.

Yes, it is. In both cases you are driving your vehicle out of ordinary conditions whilst being effectively (or completely in the case of a UK day) uninsured.

If you think that it is not worth the risk then don't go (as you don't).

hurfdurf · 5 Feb 2011 at 19:03

What happened here?

Dangerous · 5 Feb 2011 at 19:08

hurfdurf said:
What happened here?

These posts were lifted from the Trip Thread that thread is about the dates we are going and not the dangers of the Track.

Dabbles · 5 Feb 2011 at 19:13

Dangerous said:
These posts were lifted from the Trip Thread that thread is about the dates we are going and not the dangers of the Track.

It did turn into a bit of a mess with quoted posts missing and random context missing throughout!

The quoted bit in the first post is a useful reminder to the people who live life simply thinking "It won't happen to me'!

burns · 5 Feb 2011 at 19:17

Genuinely not sure, but if you had to be air ambulanced from a UK track day I assume you would not end up paying? Also run-offs at the ring are a lot smaller than most UK tracks.

When I went I did two laps to say I had done it and left it at that. In hind sight I shouldn't even have done that. Risk/benefit analysis says not worth it.

Dabbles · 5 Feb 2011 at 19:29

burns said:
Genuinely not sure, but if you had to be air ambulanced from a UK track day I assume you would not end up paying?

I'm pretty sure the Air Ambulance Service is a charity, so no, you wouldn't be charged for the use of it.

[TW]Taggart · 5 Feb 2011 at 20:24

With my 5 insurance I have 5 UK track days included and 2 of those can be in Europe... but it does exclude the ring unless its a closed track e.g. for a club event.

Ive resigned to the fact that is the only way I can do it...

Adam · 5 Feb 2011 at 21:58

I was once told that you can also be invoiced for loss of revenue if you crash and the ring has to be closed while you are recovered or repairs are made. Is this true? I can't find anything to either confirm or rubbish this.

Morba · 5 Feb 2011 at 22:45

Isn't that very old? Sure I've seen that a few times!

burns · 5 Feb 2011 at 23:14

Adam said:
I was once told that you can also be invoiced for loss of revenue if you crash and the ring has to be closed while you are recovered or repairs are made. Is this true? I can't find anything to either confirm or rubbish this.

Pretty sure I remember that from the sign at the ticket office. From Ben Lovejoys sight on the costs page:

Circuit closure: €1,350 per hour