March in London on the 26th?

I give up with this place you lot just lap up what ever BS the government feed you, hopefully you might realise when your left dying on a trolly in a corridor when NHS standards go back to the 1990s tory run nhs

Your irrationality and ignorance of the problems which leads to stupid, irrelevant and unworkable solutions is not a fault with everyone else. Please learn what is actually happening.

As for the NHS standards going back to 1990s Tory levels, time to treat was quicker then ;)
 
I give up with this place you lot just lap up what ever BS the government feed you, hopefully you might realise when your left dying on a trolly in a corridor when NHS standards go back to the 1990s tory run nhs
Error: logical fallacy exception. Caught: "appeal to emotion".
 
I didn't say it was a personal attack?

In your opinion, In my opinion the cuts are overly harsh and more to do with political ideologies.

Isn't that what elections are all about though? Isn't that what the march was all about too?
 
Isn't that what elections are all about though? Isn't that what the march was all about too?

Yeah, but the lefties don't like elections when they don't produce the results they like... hence they riot instead.
 
IIRC we are borrowing at around 8-10billion a month, this is a huge figure. A short term cash injection or a small cut is not going to cut it. Our debt is estimated to double in the next decade, yet has taken us how ever many years to accumulate.
As i said yI don;t expect anyone to have a budget, but you should have some idea of what we are spending and how you purpose to counter it.

I do and it's not to cut at such drastic levels.

The cuts in the public sector will have a knock on effect in to the private sector, and the already weak economy won't cope with all this well. We need to encourage growth in the economy.

There were plenty of private sector people marching yesterday that I encountered, cuts aren't the answer. The march yesterday was an anti cut march on the face of things, but under neath it was a have against the have nots.

The debt the country is being made out to be a lot worse then it is. From 1918 to 1961 the UK national debt was over 100% of GDP. During that period the government introduced the welfare state, the NHS, state pensions, comprehensive education, built millions of council houses, and nationalised a range of industries. The public sector grew and there was economic growth.

The Japanese are in incredible debt, as is American and we are not.

Job cuts are just counterproductive. Mass job cuts would weaken the economic situation by reducing demand in the economy and putting less money in to it this in turn would providing less tax revenue.

Irland is a good example of this. They cut their public funding after the collapse of the banking sector. Mass unemployment, the economy shrunk as a result. Ireland as a direct result of this is in a far worse economic state then it was before the cuts.

For everyone shooting down the guy that suggested the banks should repay the money, do the math. We (as in the government) is still owed almost 1 trillion, it's something like the best part of 900 billion by the banks.

You just don't need to cut public spending, imho, creating jobs and reducing the strain on the flawed benefit system, trying to put money in to the economy.

Sorry if that is a bit all over the place, I feel horrific still.

You want to make cuts? Cut trident and don't go to war.
 
I give up with this place you lot just lap up what ever BS the government feed you, hopefully you might realise when your left dying on a trolly in a corridor when NHS standards go back to the 1990s tory run nhs

or perhaps it is you lapping up other peoples opinions with no research. Perhaps you should look at how much we spend and how much of that comes from borrowing, perhaps you should then look at bank bails out and what actually happened, that we have share, that some have paid us back etc.
Then learn that just because we prefer Tory policys, doesn't mean we think they are perfect. In fact there are many things I don't like about tories. I've often described it as the lesser of two evils.
 
And I'm not Pro Labour or any of this bull.

I just think the Tories were always going to cut, and this whole "national debt" has acted as a nice way of dressing these up.

I still hate Thatcher. haha!

I'm not for any party, I just think this government has gotten it quite epicly wrong.
 
For everyone shooting down the guy that suggested the banks should repay the money, do the math. We (as in the government) is still owed almost 1 trillion, it's something like the best part of 900 billion by the banks.
The debt is not included in the numbers, so we have that to pay ontop of the debt figures and it is being repaid.

creating jobs and reducing the strain on the flawed benefit system, trying to put money in to the economy.

I doubt you will find anyone who disagrees with that, but we need cuts and drastic ones at that.
 
If you're hell bent on cuts, cut Trident and stop going to war.

Cutting trident isn't going to solve a lot it is a drop in the ocean. Although there are cheaper options I think we should look at. Again I do not support all the decisions, but the drastic cuts is one.
Cutting trident or war does not solve the problems either. As a state we spend far to much on social care and logistics. It is these that need sorting out for the long term. Some can be made more efficient, others can be dealt with by priavte sectors. Others still can be run by the "state" as a non profit organisation. With a view of reducing grants year on year.
 
I do and it's not to cut at such drastic levels.

The cuts in the public sector will have a knock on effect in to the private sector, and the already weak economy won't cope with all this well. We need to encourage growth in the economy.

Growth created by borrowing money isn't really growth at all apart from in a few very specific circumstances...

There were plenty of private sector people marching yesterday that I encountered, cuts aren't the answer. The march yesterday was an anti cut march on the face of things, but under neath it was a have against the have nots.

Such division is irrelevant in the UK, the only thing stopping the have nots becoming haves is themselves.

The debt the country is being made out to be a lot worse then it is. From 1918 to 1961 the UK national debt was over 100% of GDP. During that period the government introduced the welfare state, the NHS, state pensions, comprehensive education, built millions of council houses, and nationalised a range of industries. The public sector grew and there was economic growth.

It isn't the size of our debt that is the problem, it is the rate of expansion of our debt. In the last 10 years, it has doubled in size (with half that doubling happening prior to the recession). It is going to double again by 2015 at the rate it is going. That is an insane rate of expansion, and Labour made us dependent on the money markets, so we need to listen when they warn us...

You also cite debt in terms of GDP, rather than in absolute terms, it's far scarier in absolute terms...

The Japanese are in incredible debt, as is American and we are not.

The japanese haven't been expanding at our rate, the americans have, but they hold the world's primary reserve currency, and we do not, which gives them substantially more protection than we have.

Job cuts are just counterproductive. Mass job cuts would weaken the economic situation by reducing demand in the economy and putting less money in to it this in turn would providing less tax revenue.

Recycling money doesn't actually help this though. We don't need welfare jobs, we need economically productive jobs, and they aren't often provided by the state.

Irland is a good example of this. They cut their public funding after the collapse of the banking sector. Mass unemployment, the economy shrunk as a result. Ireland as a direct result of this is in a far worse economic state then it was before the cuts.

Ireland's mistake was in guaranteeing all bank lending, personal and commercial, with the state. That is the reason they are now having to cut.

For everyone shooting down the guy that suggested the banks should repay the money, do the math. We (as in the government) is still owed almost 1 trillion, it's something like the best part of 900 billion by the banks.

No, they don't. The total potential bill (or value) of the bank bailout was around £850bn according to the ONS, however around £700bn was in the form of guarantees, which have not been activated and which are already in profit because they charged fees. As they have not been activated, no money has been paid out. The actual amount of money owed by the banks is around £150bn, much of which is already breaking even in the form of shares.

Please do some research.

You just don't need to cut public spending, imho, creating jobs and reducing the strain on the flawed benefit system, trying to put money in to the economy.

Creating unnecessary jobs only shifts the burden from one benefit system to another. It is not progress in any way.

Sorry if that is a bit all over the place, I feel horrific still.

You want to make cuts? Cut trident and don't go to war.

The war you have a point on, Trident and it's replacement costs around £2-3bn a year over 20 years, cancelling it won't actually make a dent.
 
What? The war in Iraq / Trident cost us billions of pounds, billions.

imho, the measures taken by the Government put us closer to a situation like Ireland.

We want to encourage spending and growth in the economy. You don't do this by making massive cuts, which will affect the private and public sector.

We had no problem spending money in years gone by to establish the NHS / Education and the such, There was massive economic growth and the country benefited massively from this.

I didn't want to get in to this argument, with what feels a very right wing forum. I pointed out in my bigger post what I think and you promptly ignored it and only concentrated on a couple of points :)
 
If you're hell bent on cuts, cut Trident and stop going to war.

Yeah lets give up our trump card and forget about bothering with foreign policy/standing up to oppressive regimes, terrorism etc..

clearly the money would be better spent on ensuring benefit scroungers can buy more from Iceland and students can still get heavily subsidised to go spend three years studying 'media studies' etc...
 
What? The war in Iraq / Trident cost us billions of pounds, billions.

imho, the measures taken by the Government put us closer to a situation like Ireland.

We want to encourage spending and growth in the economy. You don't do this by making massive cuts, which will affect the private and public sector.

We had no problem spending money in years gone by to establish the NHS / Education and the such, There was massive economic growth and the country benefited massively from this.

I didn't want to get in to this argument, with what feels a very right wing forum. I pointed out in my bigger post what I think and you promptly ignored it and only concentrated on a couple of points :)

See dolphs post.

trident is a minute amount, cutting it spending over the next 20 years, only covers a couple of months borrowing and does not reduce that total borrowing by any significant amount.

i concentrated on parts
a) I knew something about
b) that were important to the discussion at hand.#


Right wing attitudes has absolutely nothing to do with it. The problem at hand is our ever expanding debt.
 
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Yeah lets give up our trump card and forget about bothering with foreign policy/standing up to oppressive regimes, terrorism etc..

clearly the money would be better spent on ensuring benefit scroungers can buy more from Iceland and students can still get heavily subsidised to go spend three years studying 'media studies' etc...

You really missed the point :)
 
@ Dolph.

I outlined what I think :) You disagree and that's fine.

I don't think this will at all end well with the current Government in charge.

As I said from the start, I didn't want this to turn in to this type of argument.
 
I do and it's not to cut at such drastic levels.

The cuts in the public sector will have a knock on effect in to the private sector, and the already weak economy won't cope with all this well. We need to encourage growth in the economy.

There were plenty of private sector people marching yesterday that I encountered, cuts aren't the answer. The march yesterday was an anti cut march on the face of things, but under neath it was a have against the have nots.

The debt the country is being made out to be a lot worse then it is. From 1918 to 1961 the UK national debt was over 100% of GDP. During that period the government introduced the welfare state, the NHS, state pensions, comprehensive education, built millions of council houses, and nationalised a range of industries. The public sector grew and there was economic growth.

The Japanese are in incredible debt, as is American and we are not.

Job cuts are just counterproductive. Mass job cuts would weaken the economic situation by reducing demand in the economy and putting less money in to it this in turn would providing less tax revenue.

Irland is a good example of this. They cut their public funding after the collapse of the banking sector. Mass unemployment, the economy shrunk as a result. Ireland as a direct result of this is in a far worse economic state then it was before the cuts.

For everyone shooting down the guy that suggested the banks should repay the money, do the math. We (as in the government) is still owed almost 1 trillion, it's something like the best part of 900 billion by the banks.

You just don't need to cut public spending, imho, creating jobs and reducing the strain on the flawed benefit system, trying to put money in to the economy.

Sorry if that is a bit all over the place, I feel horrific still.

You want to make cuts? Cut trident and don't go to war.

A lot of the Japanese debt is internal debt, Japanese lending to the government is somewhat of a tradition and there is little flight of capital when things go bad, as can be seen by the long depression over there.

the march was 'anti-cuts', as in no cuts? lol

there needs to be big cuts. Despite your references to earlier times, the European sovereign debt crisis was a sharp reminder of our frailty to our creditors. Sharp increases on government bond spreads if investors start to second guess us would be terrible. Perhaps I could agree with you on reducing some of the cuts, but you say you don't need to cut public spending and that public debt over 100% is ok? no no no

here is an article showing that public debt over 90% is highly correlated to severe under-performance in the economy:

http://www.voxeu.eu/index.php?q=node/5395
 
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What? The war in Iraq / Trident cost us billions of pounds, billions.

The war in Iraq is over, and has been for a while. Trident replacement does cost us billions of pounds, approx £20-30bn, over 20 years. When we're dealing with a deficit of £160bn per year, and defence spending is one of the few areas of government spending with significant growth drivers (unlike welfare, healthcare etc), cutting a program worth around £2bn a year is completely pointless.

imho, the measures taken by the Government put us closer to a situation like Ireland.

No offence, but you are failing to convince that your opinion is in any way informed or educated.

We want to encourage spending and growth in the economy. You don't do this by making massive cuts, which will affect the private and public sector.

You encourage meaningful, long term growth by driving the private sector, through tax cuts, unravelling of pointless red tape and so on. The government is doing this. You don't encourage meaningful, long term growth by creating or continuing to support (because they were created over the last 13 years) unnecessary jobs with borrowed money.

We had no problem spending money in years gone by to establish the NHS / Education and the such, There was massive economic growth and the country benefited massively from this.

And now we need to reform those institutions to allow the economic benefits to return.

I didn't want to get in to this argument, with what feels a very right wing forum. I pointed out in my bigger post what I think and you promptly ignored it and only concentrated on a couple of points :)

Some posters can be very right wing, others just want some reality injected into the proceedings. Labour attempted to create a client state of labour voters with borrowed money. We need to unwind that now, it'll take time, but we don't have a choice because it isn't sustainable. the 'cuts' are actually only a slowdown in the massive expansion of state spending that occurred under labour, bringing the public sector back down to historical level and in line with taxation income, as well as removing the perverse disincentives to work from our benefits system. that is all good and necessary, and so far, you've not given anything to suggest otherwise. You've just waved your hands, claimed it's evil and cited a few small ticket items and proven unworkable taxation approaches as well as demonstrated a severe lack of education or understanding regarding the country's finances and how they are made up.

Do I agree with all the coalitions cuts and reforms? No, I don't. Some of them go too far, some don't go far enough, some show a lack of sufficient reforming vision, and some are being sabotaged by councils and the civil service, cutting frontline services in an attempt to gain popular support to clawback more money from taxpayers.
 
I'm unaware where I said that public debt over 100% was okay? I was pointing out that at times we have had it at that and still spent?

The march was anti cuts but I don't represent all the people on the march, just myself.
 
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