Census - other Religion option?

semi-pro waster · 27 Mar 2011 at 12:26

Castiel said:
Because No-Religion implies I have a position on the question, I do not, thus No-Religion would be the wrong answer.

meghatronic said:
There should have been a "Don't know/care" option - this is distinct from "no religion". I appreciate the statement is not "there is no religion", but to say one has "no religion" is a step too far.

It might be worth remembering what the census is here. It's asking you at a specific point in time what is true for you - at this point in time you have no religion because you do not ascribe to the beliefs of any religion. It is not asking you for a definitive statement for the rest of your life - if it was I'd have difficulty estimating what my occupation will be, where I'll be living, if I'll be married etc.

I can understand why you don't want to put a definite and it's obviously your right as an optional question but I think you're looking too deeply into what the question means when it's a fairly blunt instrument.

Glaucus · 27 Mar 2011 at 12:27

Castiel said:
Yes it does. It implies that I have made a concious decision.

It really doesn't.

That would be worded like there is no religion as meghatronic says.

no religion simply means that and will be used as that. It means currently you have no religion. Not that you don't have beliefs or anything else. You seem to be reading a question that just isn't implied.

meghatronic · 27 Mar 2011 at 12:27

AcidHell2 said:
It doesn't, it simply means you have no religion. That's all, it doesn't delve any deeper into it.

It's the principle. It delves as much as statisticians wish to do so. The synonymity of "No religion" and atheism is far too close for me. I have no opinion on the matter, and this is not the same as no religion.

It's exactly why most online polls have a pancake option:

meghatronic · 27 Mar 2011 at 12:29

semi-pro waster said:
I can understand why you don't want to put a definite and it's obviously your right as an optional question but I think you're looking too deeply into what the question means when it's a fairly blunt instrument.

This is the problem, I appreciate we're reading too much into it. But I value the Census, and want to make sure I'm as unambiguous as possible. Which is why I (& Castiel it seems) left it blank.

Castiel · 27 Mar 2011 at 12:31

AcidHell2 said:
It really doesn't.

That would be worded like there is no religion as meghatronic says.

no religion simply means that and will be used as that. It means currently you have no religion. Not that you don't have beliefs or anything else. You seem to be reading a question that just isn't implied.

I disagree, I may well be deemed as Christian, I do many things that Christians do, celebrate Christmas, Easter, my son attends a Faith School, I go to church functions on occassion, I read the Bible (a lot)...and so on. So if anything I should have by your definition ticked Christianity.

However, I have yet to decide, I don't have No-Religion, I just don't know what it is yet, if anything. No religion is too close to Atheism for my taste.

There only way to answer the question honestly was to ignore it.

Glaucus · 27 Mar 2011 at 12:32

Castiel said:
I disagree, I may well be deemed as Christian, I do many things that Christians do, celebrate Christmas, Easter, my son attends a Faith School, I go to church functions on occassion, I read the Bible (a lot)...and so on. So if anything I should have by your definition ticked Christianity.

None of those things make you a christian though, as you no yourself you don't believe in it.

Although many people will put Christianity down for that reason, which is a shame.

Castiel · 27 Mar 2011 at 12:32

meghatronic said:
It's the principle. It delves as much as statisticians wish to do so. The synonymity of "No religion" and atheism is far too close for me. I have no opinion on the matter, and this is not the same as no religion.

It's exactly why most online polls have a pancake option:

Precisely.

Nitefly · 27 Mar 2011 at 12:33

Surely being part of a religion is a bit like being The One in the matrix - if you know, you know.

You know?

Glaucus · 27 Mar 2011 at 12:34

meghatronic said:

I disagree, that you can have no idea.

Religion either you have one or you fall into one of the many categorises which fall under no religion, which would include agnosticism. It really is a yes or no question.

Naffa · 27 Mar 2011 at 12:35

The comparison quite clearly doesn't stand. Having an opinion on an issue is not the same as being religious.

Imagine that there's an orange on the floor, if you pick it up, you're holding the orange. If you consciously decide not to pick it up, you're not holding the orange. If you are undecided about whether to pick it up, you're still not holding the orange.

It's not the same as being asked a question about a political issue and not knowing the answer.

Castiel · 27 Mar 2011 at 12:35

AcidHell2 said:
None of those things make you a christian though, as you no yourself you don't believe in it.

Although many people will put Christianity down for that reason, which is a shame.

Who are you to decide what makes someone Christian?

That is entirely up to them how they manifest and interpret their belief.

meghatronic · 27 Mar 2011 at 12:35

AcidHell2 said:
None of those things make you a christian though, as you no yourself you don't believe in it.

Although many people will put Christianity down for that reason, which is a shame.

Why is it a shame? Who are you to dictate what people identify with?

Christianity isn't a check list:
Read the Bible [ y ]
Believe in Abrahamic God [ y ]
Go to church [ x ]

Sorry you're not a Christian, you have "no religion".

People can identify with whomever they want. I'm pretty sure it's in The Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

Castiel · 27 Mar 2011 at 12:36

naffa said:
The comparison quite clearly doesn't stand. Having an opinion on an issue is not the same as being religious.

Imagine that there's an orange on the floor, if you pick it up, you're holding the orange. If you consciously decide not to pick it up, you're not holding the orange. If you are undecided about whether to pick it up, you're still not holding the orange.

It's not the same as being asked a question about a political issue and not knowing the answer.

Except it is a hugely political issue, as this and many other threads will testify.

Naffa · 27 Mar 2011 at 12:36

Ok, time to fall on my sword and bow out.

I wish there was a set amount of posts for people to make in threads like this.

EDIT: That wasn't the point I was making by the way.

Castiel · 27 Mar 2011 at 12:37

AcidHell2 said:
I disagree, that you can have no idea.

Religion either you have one or you fall into one of the many categorises which fall under no religion, which would include agnosticism. It really is a yes or no question.

Obviously it is not, otherwise why the optional nature of the question.

meghatronic · 27 Mar 2011 at 12:38

AcidHell2 said:
I disagree, that you can have no idea.

Religion either you have one or you fall into one of the many categorises which fall under no religion, which would include agnosticism. It really is a yes or no question.

That's your interpretation. Certainly not mine.

Also, a finer point, agnosticism doesn't refute the existence of religion. In fact, such statement is axiomatically contrary to the philosophy:

"Agnosticism is the view that the truth value of...existence or non-existence of any deity....is unknown or unknowable."

Glaucus · 27 Mar 2011 at 12:40

Castiel said:
Who are you to decide what makes someone Christian?

It's not, but you yourself know you aren't a christian(you've said so in many threads) and most people who do those also themselves no they aren't a christian, it is more of a cultural thing.

meghatronic said:
That's your interpretation. Certainly not mine.

Also, a finer point, agnosticism doesn't refute the existence of religion. In fact, such statement is axiomatically contrary to the philosophy:

"Agnosticism is the view that the truth value of...existence or non-existence of any deity....is unknown or unknowable."

I know what agnosticism is, it still falls under no religion, as it isn't one.

Why is it a shame? Who are you to dictate what people identify with?

As I think the census is important and it skews the results, that's why it is a shame.

Nitefly · 27 Mar 2011 at 12:40

Surely being a member of a religion is just a badge you label yourself with? Some christians will think other christians are bad christians and vice versa, there is no 'right' way to be a christian. I see it as no more than having it as a 'clan name' in a videogame. My mother never goes to church but says she is a christian, who am I to say otherwise that she shouldn't call herself a christian.

I think people are way overcomplicating this issue, but for the record, I'm going with it being a yes or no question

Do you label yourself with suuch a badge? Nope? Then the answer is surely no.

zipp0r · 27 Mar 2011 at 12:41

what happens if you dont fill in this census thing? i got one but cant be bothered with it :/

Castiel · 27 Mar 2011 at 12:43

AcidHell2 said:
It's not, but you yourself know you aren't a christian(you've said so in many threads) and most people who do those also themselves no they aren't a christian, it is more of a cultural thing.

I didn't tick Christian either, but then I interpret my beliefs differently than others. How I decide what constitutes my belief doesn't mean that someone else might not decide they are Christian for similar reasons.