Police Authority Question

Chris [BEANS] · 4 Apr 2011 at 21:04

Richie said:
No they don't.

Examples:
----------

If you have been identified as a suspect for a theft that happened 2-3 days ago then the police CANNOT just force entry to your home to arrest/detain you unless they have a warrant.

If the cops were chasing a suspect for a theft that just happened and the suspect runs into his house with the police close behind then the police CAN force entry without warrant.

There is a difference which ultimately relies on timescale.

Nope.

Castiel · 4 Apr 2011 at 21:05

Richie said:
No they don't.

If you have been identified as a suspect for a theft that happened 2-3 days ago then the police can't just force entry to your home to arrest/detain you unless they have a warrant.

If the cops were chasing a suspect for a theft that just happened and the suspect runs into his house with the police close behind then the police can force entry without warrant.

There is a difference which ultimately relies on timescale.

It seems that the above posted legislation and Burnsy who is an Officer disagree.

Powers of entry
When can the police enter and search

Police can only enter premises without a warrant if a serious or dangerous incident has taken place.

Situations in which the police can enter premises without a warrant include when they want to:

deal with a breach of the peace or prevent it
enforce an arrest warrant
arrest a person in connection with certain offences
recapture someone who has escaped from custody
save life or prevent serious damage to property.

Chris [BEANS] · 4 Apr 2011 at 21:16

This thread is bursting at the seams with people simply making stuff up and stating it as fact. It's entertaining, but not really very useful.
It seems to be a heading towards being a debate on what police powers and policies are...

There can't really be any debate on that, they are what they are. Apparently Burnsy is a policeman, so how about we all take his word for it?!

Richie · 4 Apr 2011 at 21:16

Then Burnsy is either mistaken or his post has been read wrongly.

If the police suspect someone of a non-serious crime (as classed by police) such as an historical theft then they will crave a warrant BEFORE going to the home of the suspect. They can't just turn up, demand and force entry and then arrest the suspect without a warrant in this case.

If they are invited into the home or meet the suspect in a public place then that's different.

As I say, if the cops are in "hot pursuit" of the suspect for a non-serious crime like theft then they can force entry but that "right" to force entry diminishes with time.

Richie · 4 Apr 2011 at 21:18

Chris [BEANS];18829051 said:
Apparently Burnsy is a policeman, so how about we all take his word for it?!

Burnsy is a Special Constable. Granted he has the same powers but, like any part-time role, I would rate the information given from a full time cop over a Special given they do the job every day.....

This is by no means a slate again Specials.

Perhaps VS can add his info on the right to force entry....

Chris [BEANS] · 4 Apr 2011 at 21:21

Richie said:
Then Burnsy is either mistaken or his post has been read wrongly.

If the police suspect someone of a non-serious crime (as classed by police) such as an historical theft then they will crave a warrant BEFORE going to the home of the suspect. They can't just turn up, demand and force entry and then arrest the suspect without a warrant in this case.

If they are invited into the home or meet the suspect in a public place then that's different.

As I say, if the cops are in "hot pursuit" of the suspect for a non-serious crime like theft then they can force entry but that "right" to force entry diminishes with time.

Not specific enough example. Theft is an either way offence. Therefore, the police could force entry under section 17 of PACE to effect an arrest if they believed the suspect was inside.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1984/60/section/17

Chris [BEANS] · 4 Apr 2011 at 21:24

I'm sure VS will be along soon to clear it all up.

Richie · 4 Apr 2011 at 21:29

I think you may be reading s17 wrongly. Sub-section 2 (if the cop believes the suspect to be inside) only comes into effect for the crimes/reason stated in sub-section 1 and not just "when the cop believes a suspect for any crime is within"

Perhaps someone like VS can clear this up for some people here.

Edit: Even bearing in mind that there may be some slight differences between PACE in E&W and the Common Law powers to enter premises in Scotland, cops cannot force entry to private homes just because a suspect for ANY crime is reasonably believed to be within and they want to arrest them without warrant

Chris [BEANS] · 4 Apr 2011 at 21:38

Richie said:
Sub-section 2 (if the cop believes the suspect to be inside) only comes into effect for the crimes/reason stated in sub-section 1

S17 PACE 1984 said:
1 (b)of arresting a person for an [indictable] offence;

In your example of theft, theft is an either way offence.....

Castiel · 4 Apr 2011 at 21:43

Richie said:
Then Burnsy is either mistaken or his post has been read wrongly.

If the police suspect someone of a non-serious crime (as classed by police) such as an historical theft then they will crave a warrant BEFORE going to the home of the suspect. They can't just turn up, demand and force entry and then arrest the suspect without a warrant in this case.

If they are invited into the home or meet the suspect in a public place then that's different.

As I say, if the cops are in "hot pursuit" of the suspect for a non-serious crime like theft then they can force entry but that "right" to force entry diminishes with time.

I don't think anyone is saying they can force their way in with no cause. In the case of the OP if he didn't show to an arranged surrender, or didn't contact the Police to arrange one then they can enter his property to arrest them. An arrest warrant would have been issued prior to them knocking on his door.

Also if the Police have cause to believe an offence is being committed or they have reasonable grounds that a suspect is present they do not need a warrant.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powers_of_the_police_in_England_and_Wales#Arrest_without_warrant

Amp34 · 4 Apr 2011 at 21:49

Richie · 4 Apr 2011 at 21:50

Chris [BEANS];18829230 said:
In your example of theft, theft is an either way offence.....

Depends on aggravating factors so I guess it was a poor example. I will use a much clearer example instead. Therefore replace "theft" with "supplying alcohol to persons under 18" (deliberately using a very minor crime)

Cops cannot simply force entry to a private address just because they reasonably believe the suspect for this crime is within unless they have a warrant.

Chris [BEANS] · 4 Apr 2011 at 21:51

Almost pressed play, then noticed it's 48 minutes long!!
What's it about?

Chris [BEANS] · 4 Apr 2011 at 21:53

Richie said:
Depends on aggravating factors so I guess it was a poor example. I will use a much clearer example instead. Therefore replace "theft" with "supplying alcohol to persons under 18" (deliberately using a very minor crime)

Cops cannot simply force entry to a private address just because they reasonably believe the suspect for this crime is within unless they have a warrant.

I'll agree with that one

Richie · 4 Apr 2011 at 21:56

Castiel said:
I don't think anyone is saying they can force their way in with no cause. In the case of the OP if he didn't show to an arranged surrender, or didn't contact the Police to arrange one then they can enter his property to arrest them. An arrest warrant would have been issued prior to them knocking on his door.

I already stated that, prior to the cops going to the OP's address, they would have craved a warrant. No warrant then, depending on what the crime was = no automatic entry.

Also if the Police have cause to believe an offence is being committed or they have reasonable grounds that a suspect is present they do not need a warrant.

As I have already said, a crime being committed or having been committed a very short time earlier is different from a crime that occurred after a period of time had passed.

The power of a cop to force entry without warrant for some crimes diminishes with time i.e. if it just happened then its fine but if it took 2-3 days for a cop to get a named suspect then thats diff.

Everything you put in your above post agrees with everything I have said

Castiel · 4 Apr 2011 at 22:03

Richie said:
I already stated that, prior to the cops going to the OP's address, they would have craved a warrant. No warrant then, depending on what the crime was = no automatic entry.

As I have already said, a crime being committed or having been committed a very short time earlier is different from a crime that occurred after a period of time had passed.

The power of a cop to force entry without warrant for some crimes diminishes with time i.e. if it just happened then its fine but if it took 2-3 days for a cop to get a named suspect then thats diff.

Everything you put in your above post agrees with everything I have said

I don't recall saying anything different.

Richie · 4 Apr 2011 at 22:09

Castiel said:
If they have cause to arrest you then they have cause to enter your premises.

to which I replied

Richie said:
Not wholly true (unless its diff in E&W). Police can only enter a house under certain circumstances and do not have carte blanch just because they seek to arrest you

When I put this reply up for people's info, I was met by posts saying it was incorrect.

Castiel · 4 Apr 2011 at 23:18

Richie said:
to which I replied

When I put this reply up for people's info, I was met by posts saying it was incorrect.

If they have cause.....which implies that they have reasonable grounds to enter a property, and/or have the authority to do so.

In effect they do have carte blanche because they either need reasonable grounds as Burnsy pointed out or in the event that it is a planned arrest an arrest warrant would be issued.

In reality there are hundreds of exceptions that negate the need for an arrest warrant....

http://webarchive.nationalarchives....licing/Chart_All_Statutes2835.pdf?view=Binary

http://webarchive.nationalarchives....icing/List_of_Powers(SIs)2835.pdf?view=Binary

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/police/powers/custody/

Essentially, the cases where an arrest warrant are required seem to be the limited ones.

I'm sure that VS or someone equally qualified can make the issue clearer.

Vulcan · 4 Apr 2011 at 23:22

Chris [BEANS];18829348 said:
Almost pressed play, then noticed it's 48 minutes long!!
What's it about?

It's a talk involving a lawyer and a former police officer, and they discuss why you shouldn't talk to the police without a lawyer present, even if you're innocent of the crime you are being questioned for. It is US based, but still an interesting video.

Energize · 4 Apr 2011 at 23:25

Actually it's about why you shouldn't talk to the police ever, because it can only result in them gathering evidence against you,