ICE people - in here please

[Atari]

Hi all,

I'm looking to add some more bass to my e36 coupe. At the moment I've got an underpowered single JBL 15" - real budget sub which was a temp measure in the car. So I've gone out and bought a set of JL Audio 12w3 D4's. I don't want stupid bass, or want to spend stupid money so I didn't bother looking at the W6's and W7's.

I'm in a bit of a dilemma as to which amp to use to run the lot.

The specs of the subs are 300W RMS each, dual voice coil, 4 Ohm impedance. Full specs below if this makes any differene:

http://mobile.jlaudio.com/pdfs/12W3v2_MAN.pdf

Now from reasearching the net, everyone seems to pair 2 of these subs with the JL 500.1 amp, which gives 340w RMS @ 4ohm, and 500w RMS @ 2ohm. I can get this amp, but the other one which caught my eye was the JBL GTO 7001 which is rated at the following:

425 watts RMS x 1 channel at 4 ohms
700 watts RMS x 1 channel at 2 ohms & 14.4V supply
Max Power: 700 watts at 4 ohms


Which of the two would you get to run the two subs. I'd like to push the subs hard sometimes (read fairly often), but I can't work out which would be the better.

Any ideas please?

Cheers,
Atari

 

[Skilid]

I had that JBL amp paired with 2 JBL GT5-12's and it gave plenty of punch for me, sometimes a little too much. Either would be fine though.

 

[james.miller]

cant see how a single 15" doesnt provide enough bass tbh, surely its either broken or not set up correctly. if it's something like the gto 1504d (which i have) then you are definitely doing something wrong. mine was cracking 130db in my living room and much much louder in the car. ive actually got a single 12" vibe slr in the car and although i've not had my meter on it, i bet its easily capable of pushing 130db 30-60hz.


anyway, amps, most people will tell you to avoid jbl amps and quite right too - their cheap amps are rubbish. i'd much rather have the JL. if you want a decent budget amp then look at the vibe slick a4, capable of a bonafide 2x500w RMS @ 2 ohms and actually cheaper than the JBL amp. very capable for the money.

 

[Skilid]

anyway, amps, most people will tell you to avoid jbl amps and quite right too - their cheap amps are rubbish. if you want a decent budget amp then look at the vibe slick a4, capable of a bonafide 2x500w RMS @ 2 ohms and actually cheaper than the JBL amp. very capable for the money.

Err, JBL amps are not crap. Yes they are in the budget range, but they are far from crap. I've heard a lot of bad things about Vibe gear.

 

[james.miller]

put it this way i've repaired plenty of them mate. the vibe slick amps are far better built for the money. I'm a lot more impressed with their budget subwoofers than their budget amps. (JBL, that is)

 

[andy_mk3]

I'd get the JL Audio amp, I have a 4 channel one running a pair of components and it's been absolutely brilliant, excellent quality, really pleased with it. you wont be disappointed

 

[Atari]

cant see how a single 15" doesnt provide enough bass tbh, surely its either broken or not set up correctly.

It's a bit of both to be honest. I upgraded the front speakers with a set of components and ran them off an 2/4 ch Alpine amplifier. The sub was an afterthought as it was an old bottom of the barrel cheapy one - but it's massively underpowered, and when it's powered correctly - it still doesn't give deep bass, more punchy and short.

Cheers for the input though guys, I'm leaning towards the JL amp as it seems to come pretty well recommended for that sub setup.

 

[Amoeba]

Wildcard - take a look at the Audison SRx-3

Edit -- assuming you are looking at amping your front speakers too that is..

 

[Skilid]

Weird, your the first person i've heard say bad things about JBL gear. But if you repair them I guess you'd know. Same with me and laptop brands. However, if a certain brand is more popular, you are bound to get more of them go wrong, as more of them are being sold in the first place.

 

[james.miller]

ah fair enough. I would always personally choice a single bigger sub over two smaller ones if possible, but two smaller subs do give you more options with the install. either way, 2x 12" drivers or a single 15", it should be capable of being gob smackingly loud driven with some decent power which i've no Doubt the JL will provide. just remember to feed it with some decent cabling as well

Weird, your the first person i've heard say bad things about JBL gear. But if you repair them I guess you'd know. Same with me and laptop brands. However, if a certain brand is more popular, you are bound to get more of them go wrong, as more of them are being sold in the first place.

well, it's only the cheaper end amps like i mentioned. their proper stuff is built like tanks but then the same can be said for most brands really. it's just that vibes budget amps, like my a4, are honestly really good value for money. It really does perform well, 'makes the lights dim but it's never missed a beat lol.

 

[Amoeba]

It depends on the sort of music you are listening too. 1 x 15" sub would be great for the long low beats in hip hop, but not so good for punchier beats in house.

I have 2 x 10w3v2 in my car for mainly dance music

 

[Skilid]

ah fair enough. I would always personally choice a single bigger sub over two smaller ones if possible, but two smaller subs do give you more options with the install. either way, 2x 12" drivers or a single 15", it should be capable of being gob smackingly loud driven with some decent power which i've no Doubt the JL will provide. just remember to feed it with some decent cabling as well

All depends on what sort of music you listen to as to which setup would be better (2x12's or 1x15). Fast dance music/hardcore you'd want 2x12's for faster response, for drum 'n' bass or reggae you'd want a single 15 for lows.

However, there are those that argue more cone area is better, which you'd get with 2 12's.

 

[Amoeba]

snip

Quite

 

[james.miller]

'fast' or 'slow' responses can be achieved by either, it's all about the tuning and it's not always the case that a 15" will drop lower. that depends on a number of factors, the driver itself, the box ect. bigger drives generally need bigger boxes to perform, especially if they are ported. this is why two smaller drivers can be easier to install, at least if space is a consideration. but going back to the main point, it's a myth that smaller cones are fast are punchy and bigger cones are slow or sloppy.

there's an artical here http://classic-web.archive.org/web/...ubwoofer-driver-guide/myths-about-subwoofers/

ignoring the slow loading times (its archived), it's massively insightful and debunks a lot of the common misconceptions regarding subwoofers. It was written years ago but its still true to this day For those who CBA though :

# 3 Subwoofers are fast / slow

More appropriately labeled Damping or Ringing, these concepts are really reciprocals of one another have nothing to do with speed, tightness, “boomieness” or any other misused and inappropriate term for subwoofers. Subwoofers, or rather bass drivers, all move at the same frequency when instructed to via an input single. The difference is really about the Q alignment of the system. There are many famous Q alignments which produce various frequency responses, but beyond the complex mathematics is a fundamental principal of force and acceleration and the driver will respond to a sinusoidal wave at various accelerations depending on the moving mass and force that the voice coil and motor generate on the cone. Therefore any driver can be faster or slower depending simply on the voltage! It makes little sense to call any driver faster or slower.

Damping or Ringing is really what we’re after and the amount of either is really a function of system volume along with the electro-mechanical damping factor of the driver. For example, in a sealed box system, as the volume of the cabinet becomes small, the internal pressures increase when the driver pushes in and out. This pressure is a force which, not nearly as strong as the electromotive damping force, works in the opposite direction. Contrary to intuition, higher internal pressure (which we tend to associate with tightness or stiffness) decreases damping and promotes ringing at one particular frequency (Fc in the case of a sealed box). The pressure from the air inside the box works against the driver’s natural damping factor of 1/(Qts). When the pressure becomes large relative to the motor’s damping factor, the driver will ring more and cause a peak in SPL at the given resonate frequency (Fc). This tends to be somewhere around 40-60Hz in a given sealed box, but could be outside that range under abnormal circumstances. This peak is ill desired and is accountable to the proclaimed “boomy” sounding subwoofers which tend to lack clarity, good transit response and dynamics. However some people prefer some ringing because it provides a natural boost in a very audible frequency band. Likewise, in a larger box, the Q will decrease and the ringing and SPL around that frequency will too, but the low end will open up and you’ll have more deep bass. This tends to sound better and more controlled.

On the flip side, over dampened drivers tend to have poor low frequency response and require equalization to boost the low frequencies. They tend to work better in vented boxes where their larger motor force factor (BL^2/Re) is put to good use with a resonator which then makes the low end much more efficient with its increased displacement. Likewise, drivers with high Qts will work better in sealed boxes and should be exempt from being used in a ported system without careful consideration. When high Q drivers are used in a vented system they will ring at the tuning frequency of the box (Fb in this case) and the “boomy” problem is considerably worse.

and here

# 8 Smaller drivers sound better than bigger drivers

One of the biggest myths about woofers is that 8’s and 10’s are “tighter” and “cleaner” than 15’s or 18’s. Nothing is further from the truth. What tends to happen is that the smaller drivers have lower Q’s because manufactures tend to put large cones on smaller motors to increase SPL and sensitivity but not BL product. Well unless the motor can compensate for the extra mass it has to push, then the Qts will not be the same as the smaller drivers and ultimately the driver may not be suited for the same kinds of alignments and could ring too much and compromise the perceived sound quality. Having said that, high Qts drivers are not any less “tight” or “musical” than well dampened drivers, it’s just they require larger boxes and less internal pressure to prevent ringing. Ultimately there becomes a point where a driver really should be used in an infinite baffle where its actual Qts and Fs becomes the system Qtc and Fc. As enclosure volume decreases, Qtc increases and it will take a driver with a low Qts to make for an average Q system. So in conclusion, the only reason to use a smaller bass driver is for space, weight and potentially power considerations, but likewise, it is inappropriate to try and fit a larger driver into a space smaller than it is ideal for.

 

[HamZilla]

Is it possible to mix different sub sizes to get the best of both worlds?
E.g. a 12 for rolling deep bass and 10 for punchy fast slams.
Or does it come out as a big mess?

 

[Skilid]

Snip

I quite agree, my statement was just very generalised. It is all about installation. I've always been told 10% equipment 90% installation. But I think we are going off track of the OP's original thread question here.

I was very happy with my JBL stuff and it was cheap for the power and quality (amp £130, 2 subs £40).

Maybe pop on to talk audio and see if there are any local meets going on, you can go and listen to their stuff and see what you think.

Is it possible to mix different sub sizes to get the best of both worlds?
E.g. a 12 for rolling deep bass and 10 for punchy fast slams.
Or does it come out as a big mess?

I don't believe it is recommended.

 

[james.miller]

Is it possible to mix different sub sizes to get the best of both worlds?
E.g. a 12 for rolling deep bass and 10 for punchy fast slams.
Or does it come out as a big mess?

I wouldnt bother personally. it's hard enough to get a single sub and a pair of coaxials to work well in a car, adding more speakers/subwoofers of differing performance is just asking for trouble lol

 

[andy_mk3]

I have a 12" and I think they're the best size as an 'all-rounder', it does me alright anyway.

 

[MikeHunt79]

With cars you get a lot of cabin gain, so you really want to tune your speaker to give a rising response from around 50Hz or order to get a flatish response... Otherwise you end up with some horrible one note bass.

FWIW, I'm running a pair of 8" subs in a horn... While the box is bloody huge, it gives a nice sound, and doesn't really suffer from 'fast' or 'slow' bass... Plus it gives plenty of SPL's without pulling a huge amount of current from my battery.

Ported or sealed is far easier to buy or build however, so you'd probably be better of going for that.

 

[Kei]

Don't forget that the cabinet design will play a very big part in the way it sounds.