The Koran - Whos Read It?
- Thread starter magick
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Absolutely 100% agree. Couldn't agree more in fact. What religious texts have you read, aside from the Qur'an?
Cool.
I've read most of the bible, i have the vedas (hindu) and guru granth (sikhism) on my bookself, but i havent got round to them yet
. it was vasaki recently and i did pull it off the shelf but lifes hectic at the mo 
i am interested in some of the more ancient religions, sumerian/babylonian, interesing how there are correlations between those texts and others. of course you can read that as a single message, or all the religions copying each other
glad you liked the video, its one of the chapters in the quran. a lot of people dont realise that the quran is a text narrated lyrically, so a lot of the text has a cadence thats really amazing, but different to modern expectations of form and style
ah but the quran also exhorts you to seek knowledge and not to remain ignorant. that was one of the main reason why muslims went and took the learning from the greeks for example, and discovered the motions of the planets, the astrolabe, etc.
genuine ignorance is ok, but intentional ignorance (like sticking your fingers in your ears to not hear your mums lecture) is not the same
I've read most of the bible, i have the vedas (hindu) and guru granth (sikhism) on my bookself, but i havent got round to them yet
i am interested in some of the more ancient religions, sumerian/babylonian, interesing how there are correlations between those texts and others. of course you can read that as a single message, or all the religions copying each other
An interest I share. Fair play to you fella.
A genuine no-hidden-agenda question here, but what does Islam say about that? Is it OK to be reading other religious texts etc? That may sound a naive question (apologies), and I know some other religions not only accept but encourage this. I just genuinely don't know what Islam thinks of the matter.ah but the quran also exhorts you to seek knowledge and not to remain ignorant. that was one of the main reason why muslims went and took the learning from the greeks for example, and discovered the motions of the planets, the astrolabe, etc.
genuine ignorance is ok, but intentional ignorance (like sticking your fingers in your ears to not hear your mums lecture) is not the same
Fair play. As I said I'm not trying to trip you up, just genuinely curious. Islam is one of the religions I'm least familiar with. It does beg the question though, how is one meant to recognise that Islam is the 'best'/'true' religion even if one finds it? I know that some other religions don't make that distinction and don't care what you follow provided you're good, but if one genuinely disregards the Qur'an in favour of a different philosophy with good intent, does it then become a sin or a non-sin? I hope that's clear enough, I'm trying to express a pretty deep question rather badly.
An interest I share. Fair play to you fella.
God prefers that you are a scholar and not an ignorant fool, as long as you remember that his word is the Koran then he's fine in you reading whatever you like
its the balance. did you give the money honestly believing he would use it properly? if you are in doubt then it would be incumbent upon you to find out the truth before doing the deed, so that you commit it with as full knowledge as possible.
if you were in that position, you would need to way it up and decide if your actions have a deleterious effect, and decide the best course of action, which would probably be to give him the food, not the money - of course the next bloke would give him money, and on a full stomach he would get drugs and kill someone but hey, you do the best you can do and no one can ask for more...
So we're back to square one... if I believe my actions are correct, regardless of consequences, then they are indeed correct and I cannot be judged on them?
If that's correct then we're saying that I would be judged not on conseqence, but on action?
I have a copy of it at home; given to me by one of the Aramco guys on an open day we had at work. Ive not read it, although I remember opening and and reading something about Jews being on the wrong path or something similar. Will have to try and find that passage.
Deep questions at 2:30 - maybe the best time for them
I've always been taught that all knowledge is good, its what you do with it that counts. an interesting example would be that muslim physicians were the first people to distill alcohol. they wanted to use it as an antiseptic. all muslims are also asked to preach their religion, to share it with others, both by word and deed. these words and deeds are acts of worship, so the way a muslim presents himeself at work, the way he talks to people and acts are all showing people what islam is, so are actually acts of worship. however these dont work in isolation and ignorance so you need to understand other religions and cultures so that you dont offend, or show muslims in a bad light.
i'll be honest i dont know the answer to that one. its a difficult one and a part of my religion i struggle with. in islam it says that there are some who will never get the message because god has, to paraphrase, made them incapable of learning the truth. its difficult to see if thats the case how this is their fault and why they should be punished for something that they have no contol over (if you believe that god exists and does this!)
but the quran does say that those who seek the truth will find it. i watched a programe on C4 i think about the hidden world of the vatican, and there was a preist talking on there about the concerns for the reducing number of priests taking the vows. the reasoning he gave was poetic, and i think would fit this. he said that in a modern world so full of distractions, its harder to heard the call of god
its true in that we are so focussed on the world, the short term hit of TV, credit cards, holidays, cars etc that we forget about the important stuff. even if you dont believe in a religion, you often forget about being kind, generous, polite, sensitive and fair to your fellow man. its something we are all guilty of, and its hard every day...
An interest I share. Fair play to you fella.
I've always been taught that all knowledge is good, its what you do with it that counts. an interesting example would be that muslim physicians were the first people to distill alcohol. they wanted to use it as an antiseptic. all muslims are also asked to preach their religion, to share it with others, both by word and deed. these words and deeds are acts of worship, so the way a muslim presents himeself at work, the way he talks to people and acts are all showing people what islam is, so are actually acts of worship. however these dont work in isolation and ignorance so you need to understand other religions and cultures so that you dont offend, or show muslims in a bad light.
Fair play. As I said I'm not trying to trip you up, just genuinely curious. Islam is one of the religions I'm least familiar with. It does beg the question though, how is one meant to recognise that Islam is the 'best'/'true' religion even if one finds it? I know that some other religions don't make that distinction and don't care what you follow provided you're good, but if one genuinely disregards the Qur'an in favour of a different philosophy with good intent, does it then become a sin or a non-sin? I hope that's clear enough, I'm trying to express a pretty deep question rather badly.
i'll be honest i dont know the answer to that one. its a difficult one and a part of my religion i struggle with. in islam it says that there are some who will never get the message because god has, to paraphrase, made them incapable of learning the truth. its difficult to see if thats the case how this is their fault and why they should be punished for something that they have no contol over (if you believe that god exists and does this!)
but the quran does say that those who seek the truth will find it. i watched a programe on C4 i think about the hidden world of the vatican, and there was a preist talking on there about the concerns for the reducing number of priests taking the vows. the reasoning he gave was poetic, and i think would fit this. he said that in a modern world so full of distractions, its harder to heard the call of god
its true in that we are so focussed on the world, the short term hit of TV, credit cards, holidays, cars etc that we forget about the important stuff. even if you dont believe in a religion, you often forget about being kind, generous, polite, sensitive and fair to your fellow man. its something we are all guilty of, and its hard every day...
Which is the polar opposite of what magick said earlier, hence my pulling him up on it. But he's only just started reading it, so I'll let him off.
* I'm not a Muslim and we may both be wrong, but it doesn't seem so. Nor does it seem logical as I posited earlier.
Soldato
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I answer to no higher moral or spiritual authority than myself.
Im not sure exactly what i can learn except details of why people think the way they do, which is of very little interest to me.
Im not sure exactly what i can learn except details of why people think the way they do, which is of very little interest to me.
Associate
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I find the more you read of any religious book the less religious you become
i believe (and this is my personal opinion based on what i know, lawmakers and judges may seek to differ) is that the english principle of mens rea applies. your guilt or innocence is based upon a combination (and thats the grey area) between intention and action.
the question is, did you have doubt over whether your good deed would have a negative effect? if you did and you still acted, your guilty. if you didnt you are not. its similar to causation in english law in the sense that if you could have reasonably foreseen (given your level of knowledge, maturity and ability etc etc etc) forseen the consequence and acted, you are in part liable for the consequence
/edit - just reading this through, and the best argument i have ever heard was my mums.
"if you think your doing bad, its bad, if you think your doing good, its not necessarily good, but it ain't bad. just do your best"
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Deep questions at 2:30 - maybe the best time for them
My sentiments exactly.
You're talking about 'dowah' (sp?!) right? Makes sense anyway.
Never a bad stance to take.
Surely God/Allah has just condemned this person to eternal hell through no fault of their own, or else has decided they're coming to paradise regardless of the life they lead? Difficult one to reconcile.
Presuming that God/Allah can't be wrong (and I wouldn't dream of being offensive enough to insinuate otherwise) then surely all those who genuinely sought, and found other religions, also found the truth? Perhaps this lends credence to the idea that all religions address the same ultimate truth in differing cultural and socio-political ways to suit the audience? But then it leads us to the conclusion that there's no such thing as apostasy (for example).
i watched a programe on C4 i think about the hidden world of the vatican, and there was a preist talking on there about the concerns for the reducing number of priests taking the vows. the reasoning he gave was poetic, and i think would fit this. he said that in a modern world so full of distractions, its harder to heard the call of god
its true in that we are so focussed on the world, the short term hit of TV, credit cards, holidays, cars etc that we forget about the important stuff. even if you dont believe in a religion, you often forget about being kind, generous, polite, sensitive and fair to your fellow man. its something we are all guilty of, and its hard every day...
Amen to that!
I find the more you read of any religious book the less religious you become
Perhaps 'the less spiritual you become' would be more apt. I presume that's what you were actually saying?
My sentiments exactly.
1 - You're talking about 'dowah' (sp?!) right? Makes sense anyway.
Never a bad stance to take.
2 - Surely God/Allah has just condemned this person to eternal hell through no fault of their own, or else has decided they're coming to paradise regardless of the life they lead? Difficult one to reconcile.
3 - Presuming that God/Allah can't be wrong (and I wouldn't dream of being offensive enough to insinuate otherwise) then surely all those who genuinely sought, and found other religions, also found the truth? Perhaps this lends credence to the idea that all religions address the same ultimate truth in differing cultural and socio-political ways to suit the audience? But then it leads us to the conclusion that there's no such thing as apostasy (for example).
Amen to that!
1 - yes talking about dawah (good guess on the spelling
) 2 - exactly why i find it hard to understand without context. i suppose the flip side is that if you open your heart, god will show you the right way, so the interpretation could be that if you close your heart you make it harder to hear god, and if god helps those who help themselves, he aint gonna help you!!
3 - ah but in islam your intention (and by extension that requires free will) means that people can choose right and wrong paths. that argument means that all deeds, good or ill are pre-ordained, and you are fated to believe or disbelieve, which means your only doing what you are told to, and can't take the blame. even the human courts dont take that one
theres a hadith (sayings of the prophet and stories of his acts) about tie your camel. the story below is embellished somewhat, but you get the idea, god helps those who help themselves
"One day a man ran up to the Islamic Prophet Muhammad and said “O Prophet, I’m a good Muslim. I do everything required of me by God and then some.” The prophet praised the man for his fastidiousness and piety. The man continued, “Well, O Prophet, I do all this and I trust fully in God. When I went to the market today, I recited a prayer and asked God to please look after my camel while I shopped. I left the camel there and went to shop. When I returned, the camel was gone! Why didn’t God keep my camel safe?”
The Prophet chuckled and replied “Brother, it is good that you trust in God… but always tie up your camel!”
The moral of the story is: Faith is great, but at least take basic precautions or “God helps those who help themselves”."
That's a shame. A lot of man's best work has been fiction, religious or otherwise.
true,
enjoying brandon sanderson stormlight archive at the moment (finishing off the Wot series from the late RJ)