What happen after death ?

[Castiel]

So you suggest that the energy in the brain after death may go somewhere else, ie a soul? Yet does that mean the potential energy in a computer after it is switched off is also a soul? What about the potential energy of a spade that has been put down? Or a plant that has been chopped down? I think your argument is the usual "humans are better" argument that a large amount of religious (and non religious) people appear to have. We are different and may have souls, yet other things can't possibly.

I am merely saying that Bhavv is wrong when he states that when the brain ceases to function that the energy that supports conciousness is destroyed, it isn't, by the laws of conservation of energy it merely becomes another form of energy, whether that is heat energy, potential energy or whatever, what that means or how it relates to anything is open to debate.

I was trying to illustrate that the Brain and the Mind may not be one and the same. Hence the quote:

"You can think of consciousness not as a property of the brain, but of the person."

I am not religious, neither have I made any religious statements despite Bhavv and his imagination.

As for a computer, is a computer concious?

 

[Metalface Mark]

I don't think it really matters whether there is oblivion or some form of transference of conciousness to another state or not.

If oblivion is our ultimate end then it is nothing to be afraid of as you will have no experience of that end anyway.

If there is some form of afterlife then all well and good, although as we would experience that, it may well be something to be terrified of.

Just consider that your conciousness is a form of energy, energy cannot be destroyed or created and as the Universe is essentially a closed system who can say how that energy is transformed as the body that houses it dies.

One thing is for sure however, whatever your belief you will find out one day, some sooner than others.

The way Ive always though of it, you did not care that you knew nothing of the billions of years before you were born, you could have been born before, part of something before or maybe not but theres no point in worrying about it either way.

 

[bhavv]

I am merely saying that Bhavv is wrong when he states that when the brain ceases to function that the energy that supports conciousness is destroyed, it isn't, by the laws of conservation of energy it merely becomes another form of energy, whether that is heat energy, potential energy or whatever, what that means or how it relates to anything is open to debate.

And that has nothing to do with this debate. I never stated that the energy that supports consciousness is destroyed, feel free to quote where I did. I clearly stated in many posts that it recycles back into the ecosystem, which is exactly what Biology teaches happens when organic life dies.

I am stating that humans do not remain conscious or aware after they are dead. Do you agree or disagree with this statement?

I am merely saying that Bhavv is wrong when he states that when the brain ceases to function that the energy that supports conciousness is destroyed

The first part of that statement 'the brain stops working' does not mean the second 'the energy within the brain is destroyed'.

I never said the second part, I CLEARLY said that the energy is decomposed and recycled. You clearly have no understanding of this topic.

Oh yeah, studied neuroscience at degree level?

Hmmmmmm.

Yes and I suggest you maybe try doing the same. Unfortunately I cant remember much about it anymore as I only did the neurology modules up to the second year which is 7 years ago now, but in a nutshell brain energy is created by the neurons and synapses in a functional brain. When the brain ceases to work, it stops creating all of that energy. I could simply pick up a text book and revise it all again if I wanted too, but I can guarantee that nowhere in Neurology states or teaches that either the brain or human consciousness remain functional after brain stem death.

 

[Metalface Mark]

To be fair, while I may be entirely atheist, I do entertain the idea that should I be wrong any loving God would be fully understanding upon my death.

.

My old granny who died in the 80's when she was about 80, she was never interested in religion, she got baptised about three months before, she said she was hedging her bets.

 

[bhavv]

To be fair, while I may be entirely atheist, I do entertain the idea that should I be wrong any loving God would be fully understanding upon my death.

Thats a great idea, but I would love to see any religion that states that anything good happens to disbelievers when they die

 

[muon]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_suicide_and_immortality

 

[tom91x91]

when you die you poo your pants, which has to be cleaned before the funeral., but yeah overall you just poo your pants and rot in the ground.

I cant get my head around infinite nothingness, im sure i wont know anything about it when it happens though

 

[Gazanimal]

Got to love these debates.

Frustrating & thought provoking all in one.

Personally I can't see how there is anything after death, admittedly we don't know, but we can't prove there is either. But pretty much in my opinion there's nothing, we cease, we do not transcend to a higher plane of existence. But if I'm wrong I'll be bloody surprised

Some people need a religion to guide them, give them moralistic foundation & help, but even though I was Christened as a child, taught RE at school, I'm now old enough (36) to make a judgement that the Bible & religion in general is good for some, but personally a load of old tosh.

Maybe I look at things too scientifically, but all the through the ages there's been things we don't understand and Religion has said it's the Almighty God's creation/decision etc that things happen. People were burned as heretics & imprisoned for believing the world was round etc. Science has now proven that true, but Religion uses it's power to cover up it's inadequacies & failings in understanding/explaining things & why they happen.

As I use on my Facebook page, regarding Religious Views - It's a good fairy story.

 

[lttlejoe]

It must be a wonderful state of mind to actually believe that there is some form of life after death - sadly I'm one of those who doesn't have such peace of mind.

All I know is that after death, the corpse decomposes due to chemical and bacterial decay or other destructive forces and unless someone can come up with an alternative verifiable answer which proves that a soul or the energy that once existed in the living body is somehow preserved, then I will have to accept that beyond death, there is absolutely nothing!

 

[bhavv]

Questions that Castiel still hasnt / wont answer:

1) How does the energy stored within the brain, or within human consciousness survive after the brain has been cremated?

2) I am stating that humans do not remain conscious or aware after they are dead. Do you agree or disagree with this statement?

And a new one:

3) Here is a simple single circuit diagram -

a) When the battery is removed from the circuit, what happens to the energy that was flowing through the circuit prior to the battery being removed?

b) When the battery is eventually depleted, what has happened to the energy that it originally contained?

c) If the circuit is broken beyond irreparable damage, is it possible for the circuit to ever function once again if more energy is applied to it? You can think about applying a bit of question 1 to this part by assuming that the circuit has been completely burned and melted by a bunsen burner.

I would like to hear your answers please.

 

[Castiel]

Bhavv, some of us have work to do other than listen to your nonsence, your first and second questions have been answered already by my first post and subsequent posts.

You really are obsessed with me...

 

[bhavv]

Maybe if you didnt constantly misquote what other people said, including both other posters and whatever sources you link to, and form your own incorrect judgements about them, it wouldnt happen to you in return?

 

[Nix]

Castiel, just to play devil's advocate in regards to the energy point.

How would you respond to the problem of entrophy?

 

[Surfer]

1) How does the energy stored within the brain, or within human consciousness survive after the brain has been cremated?

Question assumes brain creates consciousness and is thus one cannot exist without the other.

If i accept the question based on that then i am bound to make/or come up with an answer that complies with that paradigm ie materialism brain creates consciousness.

What if i dont think that the brain creates consciousness?

2) I am stating that humans do not remain conscious or aware after they are dead. Do you agree or disagree with this statement?

Disagree.

a) What conditions would convince you that humans do remain aware after death?

i) a dead relative as a ghost appearing and talking to you and confirming facts etc?

b) Think there are some experiences in this world that the scientific model of inquiry has difficulty coming to grips with. Science is great with phenomena but thats the world out there. What about subjective experiences? Science can say nothing about them.

 

[bhavv]

Question assumes brain creates consciousness and is thus one cannot exist without the other.

What if i dont think that the brain creates consciousness?

Disagree.

a) What conditions would convince you that humans do remain aware after death?

i) a dead relative as a ghost appearing and talking to you and confirming facts etc?

b) Think there are some experiences in this world that the scientific model of inquiry has difficulty coming to grips with. Science is great with phenomena but thats the world out there. What about subjective experiences? Science can say nothing about them.

Science can say everything about this topic, just as the link that was posted by Castiel did:

http://www.physorg.com/news164337334.html

If you dont believe that the brain creates consciousness, then you are scientifically incorrect, although I am not saying that there is anything wrong with that.

Rather than asking me what it would take to convince me of human consciousness after death, what exactly can you provide over logical scientific evidence that would convince me to believe in your spiritual ideas? Not much I am sure.

What would it take to convince you that human consciousness cannot exist without a functional brain? Because there is plenty of evidence that it cant if you look into it.

 

[Surfer]

Science can say everything about this topic, just as the link that was posted by Castiel did:

http://www.physorg.com/news164337334.html

If you dont believe that the brain creates consciousness, then you are scientifically incorrect, although I am not saying that there is anything wrong with that.

Uhh the above link doesnt say the brain creates consciousness at all. Which part says it?

Rather than asking me what it would take to convince me of human consciousness after death, what exactly can you provide over logical scientific evidence that would convince me to believe in your spiritual ideas? Not much I am sure.

I'm not the one asking the question, you are. When you ask a question it is always from a perspective, a particular paradigm if you will. In this sense, the answer comes from the question.

Spiritualist ideas?? a perfectly plausible answer which provides evidence for consciousness (and or) after death (so without the brain) ie

a dead relative as a ghost appearing and talking to you and confirming facts etc?

Note im not saying i believe this. Im asking whether this would be good enough evidence for you to be convinced that consciousness does survive without the brain.

Or is your position so entrenched in dogma (and not based on scientific principles) that you cannot accept the possibility of being incorrect? Thats not science.

What would it take to convince you that human consciousness cannot exist without a functional brain? Because there is plenty of evidence that it cant if you look into it.

The problem is, there has been plenty of instances where people have reported full cognitive consciousness (even higher consciousness states than normal waking consciousness) and yet Brain activity is minimal or below measurement (ie Brain dead), to the extent that the person is pronounced dead.

Yep the good ole NDE state

We've been here before Bhaav... science doesnt have a conclusive answer on it yet...they're still working on it. (ie trying to squeeze that piece into the ole jigsaw puzzle)

 

[Castiel]

Maybe if you didnt constantly misquote what other people said, including both other posters and whatever sources you link to, and form your own incorrect judgements about them, it wouldnt happen to you in return?

You are asking questions that have already been answered. In regard to your circuit question, I do not really see the connection between a battery and a simple circuit and the relationship between the Mind and the Brain, however, do you not understand that the energy within the battery is not depleted per se, it is moved from one form of energy to another form that the circuit uses to change that energy again in to another form of energy and so on....Energy is not destroyed, it is merely changed. The energy stored in that battery as electrical energy, eventually becomes heat energy and light energy and so on....

I am not a scientist, yet you say that you are (at least to degree level anyway), and as such surely you should understand this stuff better than I?


If you take the brain itself (ignore it's processes, which are not fully understood anyway) and when it is no longer viable, it still possesses energy, in the form of potential energy which is measurable in joules, you can burn the brain, which means the potential energy is transformed into heat energy and so on. The Brain is no longer a Brain, however the energy that it contained still exists, only in a different form.

So is "the Mind" indivisible from "the Brain", or are they independent of each other, or are they separate but related in some way?

Do you think that that physical matter is the only fundamental reality and that everything is simply the result of material interaction?

If you dont believe that the brain creates consciousness, then you are scientifically incorrect, although I am not saying that there is anything wrong with that..

That link doesn't state that the Brain creates conciousness (The Mind) it talks about energy use within the Brain and how much energy "conciousness" requires compared to other tasks that the Brain does. Which is why I linked to it.

Can you show us where the scientific consensus is that the Brain creates the Mind?

As far as I am aware there are several different schools of thought on the link between the Brain and the Mind, none are proven thus far.


Aside from this, is your claim that all philosophy is silly, if you feel that way why do you participate in threads that ask philosophical questions, I can understand why you criticise religion and the reasons why you do so, but this thread has nothing to do with religion directly so why bother?

 

[Wizzfizz]

What happens? no one knows, simple as that.

/end thread

 

[Castiel]

dp

 

[kedge]

"What happens after death"

The hope of ressurection on a paradisaic earth would be great, should one fit the criteria of course prior to his or her departure and fall into a sleep like state such as death?.