Arthur Scargill the socialist

Biohazard said:
It was hardly a riddle, was it now? :rolleyes:

It was blantly obvious.
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Well, not if you're used to reading Marxist texts where such terminology is treated as empirical, rather than normative. :rolleyes:


Biohazard said:
And where did you get this golden nugget from?

It was given to us from the capitalist class. It wasn't a hippy movement we all screamed for.

I don't think it could work like that, I prefer a distributing system of wealth within capitalism.

Although this has little to do with my point, both systems are corrupted.
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Capitalism wasn't 'given' by anybody. Capitalism was the natural progression from barter systems of centuries ago; an individual gathers X units of a resource in demand and with it can exchange it for other items which they want/need. Monetising it didn't make any difference, yet people think because you have a million quid rather than a million loaves of bread you're a greedy bourgeois oppressor.

Whilst I don't disagree that there should be mechanisms for income redistribution within capitalist systems (admittedly to a lesser extent than you probably do) this is not symptomatic of a failure of capitalism as a system. It is merely a way of adapting capitalism to fit with social democratic beliefs.

If my table is too short for my chair, the table is not defective or flawed as a table. It still functions in the exact way it was designed, it just needs to be adjusted by sticking a beer mat under each leg.



Superewza said:
In getting enjoyment from life? That's the only thing that really matters, if centuries of scientific discovery and decades of space exploration have taught us anything it's that above all else - Humanity, Earth, everything we ever do... it all amounts to jack squat. Ultimately our race will die, probably sooner rather than later, to be forgotten forever. It will not matter at all if we existed or not. I can not see how somebody can draw any conclusion from this other than the pressing need for us to deal more kindly with one another, and devote our lives to the only thing that will ever, ever give us the slightest hint of a purpose. That being happy, and helping others to do the same.
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Great. So we can all be happy as larry, but starve and live within our own rancid faecal matter. You do not see that your proposition is self-defeating.
 
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Theophany said:
Well, not if you're used to reading Marxist texts where such terminology is treated as empirical, rather than normative. :rolleyes:
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What have your reading choices got to do with my post?


Theophany said:
Capitalism wasn't 'given' by anybody. Capitalism was the natural progression from barter systems of centuries ago; an individual gathers X units of a resource in demand and with it can exchange it for other items which they want/need. Monetising it didn't make any difference, yet people think because you have a million quid rather than a million loaves of bread you're a greedy bourgeois oppressor.
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Oh it was given to us.

Theophany said:
Whilst I don't disagree that there should be mechanisms for income redistribution within capitalist systems (admittedly to a lesser extent than you probably do) this is not symptomatic of a failure of capitalism as a system. It is merely a way of adapting capitalism to fit with social democratic beliefs.

If my table is too short for my chair, the table is not defective or flawed as a table. It still functions in the exact way it was designed, it just needs to be adjusted by sticking a beer mat under each leg.
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So capitalism is the highest nature of order then?
 
Biohazard said:
Well what happens just now when people don't want this system?
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We don't have much choice, the only change we can make is through the democratic system. However from what I understand, Superewza requires the whole world to operate under his system for it to function - so what happens to those of us who don't want it - how are we kept in line?
 
adam cool dude said:
That totally depends on what bonus's you get for overtime. My job for example gives 25% on overtime till 48 hours where it becomes 50%.
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If you are earning £8-£9hr, even with time and a half overtime, you would have to work excessive hours to earn that kind of money. For example a driver earning £9p/hr would have to work an extra 37 hours a week at time and a half (£13p/hr) to earn a gross £40k a year, he would have to work 74 hours a week every week of the year to do this.

Also remember that HGV drivers (as refuse Drivers are) are restricted by driving hour regulations so wouldn't be able to put in those kind of hours under the current regulations.

The figures are simply media induced nonsense. In the real word Refuse collectors rarely earn more than £20k a year.
 
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Pinkribbonscars said:
We don't have much choice, the only change we can make is through the democratic system. However from what I understand, Superewza requires the whole world to operate under his system for it to function - so what happens to those of us who don't want it - how are we kept in line?
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The same way we are kept in line now?
 
Pinkribbonscars said:
I don't know - that is for Superewza to answer. The difference is I do not object to there being governments and authority, but in Super's model society, these would be unneccesary, apparently. I want him to clarify how it would work.
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I can't answer for him directly, but what keeps people attached to this system now?
 
Biohazard said:
What have your reading choices got to do with my post?

Oh it was given to us.

So capitalism is the highest nature of order then?
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The "greed of the minority" is wide open to readership interpretation and you know it. Greed is an inherent human trait, there is no greedy minority, there is just human greed. In that respect, capitalism is the natural order because it is based upon human instinct, not contentious concepts such as altruism.

So who gave us capitalism then? To whom should I be writing my letters of thanks for beating the Socialist uprising?

And I swear to <insert deity here> if you say something along the lines of "capitalism was given to us by the wealthy socioeconomic oppressors" I will have a full blown aneurysm.
 
Theophany said:
Great. So we can all be happy as larry, but starve and live within our own rancid faecal matter. You do not see that your proposition is self-defeating.
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That's just simply not true though, is it?

Self defeating? Says the person defending the system which denies billions basic human rights, forces them into a mind numbing schedule through which to live a dull and monotonous life and brainwashes them into believing that some sick fixations, like celebrities or reality television, are important and those that don't subscribe to them are the weird ones.
 
Theophany said:
The "greed of the minority" is wide open to readership interpretation and you know it. Greed is an inherent human trait, there is no greedy minority, there is just human greed. In that respect, capitalism is the natural order because it is based upon human instinct, not contentious concepts such as altruism.
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Not all humans are greedy.

The rich, arguably, are.

Theophany said:
So who gave us capitalism then? To whom should I be writing my letters of thanks for beating the Socialist uprising?
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I've told you already, if you can't remember from a few posts ago I'm not wasting my time.

Theophany said:
And I swear to <insert deity here> if you say something along the lines of "capitalism was given to us by the wealthy socioeconomic oppressors" I will have a full blown aneurysm.
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I hope you have a nice one. :)

Still waking up every morning and making a sacrafice to your statue of Thatcher God? ;)
 
Biohazard said:
I can't answer for him directly, but what keeps people attached to this system now?
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I personally think capitalism is fine. It is the natural progression of trade, it's not perfect, but compared to anything else that has been tried it is much better.

My question to Super is not about capitalism though - it is about the practicalities of his utopia.
 
Pinkribbonscars said:
I personally think capitalism is fine. It is the natural progression of trade, it's not perfect, but compared to anything else that has been tried it is much better.

My question to Super is not about capitalism though - it is about the practicalities of his utopia.
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What keeps people attached to this system now?
 
Biohazard, you seem more critical of Capitalism than you have been in the past. Obviously i'm glad for it, but have you changed your opinion or are you mostly playing the devils advocate? :)
 
Superewza said:
Biohazard, you seem more critical of Capitalism than you have been in the past.
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I'm critical of everything.

You may have caught me in the wrong discussion, unfortunately my views change depending on which level is being examined.

I can't profess full socialism, but I would like a socialist led capitalism with strong checks in place.


Superewza said:
Obviously i'm glad for it, but have you changed your opinion or are you mostly playing the devils advocate? :)
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Both? :p
 
Pinkribbonscars said:
You're missing the point, if you are referring to me.
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Isn't it you thats missing the point? Under any economic system you need to play the game to stay alive (as it is now). To change it you will have the illusory democratic avenues to do so, but are in reality are ineffectual (again as it is now).

Or were you expecting me to mention 'gulag'?
 
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