An Independent Scotland?

[platypus]

To say the Union would be dissolved and a "new one formed instantaneously" is incorrect, semantics is nothing to do with it. Of course the Union would be different, but it would be adapted, not new.

Any road, this is off topic. Not that the original topic was worth a 9 page thread..

 

[Edrof]

This thread is like watching a bitter married couple 'discuss' a divorce

Yeah, it is.

 

[Ahleckz]

how would a new one be formed instantaneously? thats like saying the EU is a brand new one everytime a member joins..

or my place of work is a brand new one everytime a new member of staff is hired

To say the Union would be dissolved and a "new one formed instantaneously" is incorrect, semantics is nothing to do with it. Of course the Union would be different, but it would be adapted, not new.

Any road, this is off topic. Not that the original topic was worth a 9 page thread..

My point is that The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland would cease to exist in its current political, geographical and conventional sense if Scotland left.

 

[arknor]

not really for the rest of us nothing would really change so it would be the same UK

 

[Hairybudda]

not really for the rest of us nothing would really change so it would be the same UK

If that's the case then why are you arguing so hard?

 

[arknor]

If that's the case then why are you arguing so hard?

im not i have no problem with it aslong as you realise.

you take a fair share of the debt.
you dont expect the UK armed forces to protect you.
you dont expect to continue using UK currency.
the north sea oil wont all suddenly belong to scotland.

for the rest of the UK life would carry on as normal as far as im concerned, scotland will likely end up in a worse position than it is now considering you get a pretty good deal out of beeing in the UK.

i imagine non of your mp's really want independance anyway and they are just hoping to use the threat to secure more power for scotland

 

[Biohazard]

Don't be silly. However, it wouldn't surprise me if Biohazard has Mel Gibsons Braveheart speech tattooed somewhere on his person .

How did you know?

 

[Biohazard]

because if scotland leaves the UK they more than likely wont belong to scotland.

go do some research on the north sea

How much research have you done on the North Sea?

If we don't get our oil then I want London instead.

We'll stick a wall around it and charge you to get in.

 

[arknor]

How much research have you done on the North Sea?

If we don't get our oil then I want London instead.

We'll stick a wall around it and charge you to get in.

never been to london , never intend to visit london.

i have however been to edinburgh zoo , i dont understand why you built it on a fairly steep hill though lol trust the scots

 

[Biohazard]

I'd have been more surprised if Scotland wasn't in a stronger fiscal position than the UK as a whole, given the recent problems in the housing/financial sectors. Seems a bit of a sensationalist/nonsense headline to me.

Whilst the question of whether or not Scotland is financially strong enough to survive on its own is of course an important one, the trouble digging through the statistics is that there are question marks over both sets of "proof". Scotlands deficit strength may be better than the UK as a whole, but does that help them in the case of independence, given that they would be taking on a lot more debt and fiscal responsibility?

Scotland is fiscally strong enough to stand on its on that isn't really in contention. It's hard for the Unionists here to bring up the economic argument because of the huge disparity between the structural deficit and our structural surplus. The thing with those statistics are, as you know, only accounts for as we are now and not for the potential arrangements. That is where the real argument needs to be made up here but it's still early days there. In all likelyhood debt apportionment would be on the basis of population.

I think independence for Scotland is more an emotive subject that the Scottish people obviously feel they have a right to, fair enough. But in terms of being good for Scotland? I'm not so sure. Devolution, yes because Scotland has only to gain at the UKs expense.

We shouldn't be gaining for the expense of others, if I accepted that premise. This is the problem, the union is not fit for purpose when we have these retrenched opinions about funding and spending and claims of disparancy and unfairness from all sides.

 

[weescott]

If we don't get our oil then I want London instead.

No you don't. It's an orrid place.

Borris numbnuts wants to pipe water from Wales and Scotland due to a predicted shortage in the SE due to population growth (read too many illegal immigrants).

Water is the new oil!

 

[Biohazard]

never been to london , never intend to visit london.

i have however been to edinburgh zoo , i dont understand why you built it on a fairly steep hill though lol trust the scots

Yes, in a city originally build on seven hills.

Who would have thought it.

The zoo is quite crap tbh, was the last time I was there. They are expanding further up the hill soon you'll be glad to hear.

 

[Biohazard]

My assertion that Braveheart is rascist is in the modern interpretation of the word - there's no denying that at best it is utterly one sided and blinkered with a willfully negative portrayal of the English. Were it any other nation but the English I'm sure there'd have been a lot more fuss made of it.

I think a lot of you make enough fuss about it? If that is the best, what is your worst description? It is pretty one sided, because it really wasn't about England and the English directly.

The nobleman raping is completely unevidenced in this case. That is creative licence on the 15th century poem which basically infered it, I'd guess the film was made for a worldwide audience from and as such they might not know our history as many people here don't either. A few tartanised Scots mulling about with English Guards and forts in itself is unlikely to spark interest from those audiences back when. They invented a new dynamic from Harry's account to give a more emotional edge. I would have been happy as a viewer without it yet I don't think it's such an increadible outrage as you feel. Rape wasn't exactly unknown in the 1200's either it's just unfortunate for you I suppose that the catylist was an rape by an Englishman.

I think there should be a more realistic remake, might cheer you up a bit.

To be honest I think it also insults the Scots as presenting them as a simple warrior race, when in reality Scots have always been highly resourceful and intelligent.

There wasn't really too much else to depict for Scotland at that time in all fairness. I don't think it is insulting to Scot's it's a historical fluff for fun, and quite the opposite film had never really given the Scottish a loud perspective like these films.

Anyway, was Longshanks a tyrant? Possibly, but is anyone who wishes to expand a territory a tyrant? It's the nature of man to conquer and there were Scottish invasions of Northern England too.

The point I'm making is that the battles are all entirely in the long distant past and have been largely dredged up in the modern age by a bat**** crazy Aussie who we all know has issues with certain cultures and races.

Imperialism undoubtadly brings with it tyranny, especially in the manner into which the subversion was implimented. I agree, it's just a 16 year old film and it isn't relevent. It's rarely the Scots who bring it up however. It was the second poster in the thread, from Hull.

Also, while Gibson starred and directed in it he did not write the script afaik.

There's also the matter of that slimy looking Salmond who gains my vote for the most untrustworthy looking politician in British politics; he clearly has an agenda way beyond a 'free' Scotland.

I've racked my brain and genuinely can't think of anything other than mass slave camps and a fascist police state El Salmando dictatorship with gestapo and 70's disco misery. What do you think he's up to?

Anyway, on the subject of politics, might I remind people that we had an non elected Scotsman as our previous Prime Minister.

We've had non elected English Prime ministers also going by the same principles.

Why single out the Scottish one unless you have a problem with Scottish people holding high office in UK politics?

 

[Raumarik]

Edinburgh zoo is hideously expensive and not a patch on other ones such as Oregon zoo which is simply staggeringly good

 

[Gav]

im not i have no problem with it aslong as you realise.

you take a fair share of the debt.
you dont expect the UK armed forces to protect you.
you dont expect to continue using UK currency.
the north sea oil wont all suddenly belong to scotland.

for the rest of the UK life would carry on as normal as far as im concerned, scotland will likely end up in a worse position than it is now considering you get a pretty good deal out of beeing in the UK.

i imagine non of your mp's really want independance anyway and they are just hoping to use the threat to secure more power for scotland

Debt: Yep, its fair that we shoulder some of the debt.
Armed Forces: We have our own regiment who will do a fabulous job. One other thing to note is that the Isle of Man is protected by the UK's armed forces. I'm sure that some kind of agreement similar to that would probably be arranged.
Currency: We already have our own currency. The Scottish pound will do us fine.
North Sea Oil and Gas: Since most of the UK's revenue is the tax paid by the companies who land the oil and gas in the UK..... I guess that tax will be getting paid to Scotland rather than England. Hopefully the Scottish government would realise how important this is and they would make the tax levels lower than those imposed by the English government.

I would vote for independence, I think we would do just fine on our own.

 

[weescott]

Debt: what debt?
Armed forces: since Scotland has been at the forefront of the British army for centuries I see no reason for that to change
Currency: The pound sterling is Scottish, so England should change thier currency.
NS Oil and Gas: It's on the SNP agenda and IS being adressed.

 

[POB]

How do goods get to Scotland, is it all via England and our ports / chunnel ? Just wondering about the logistics if for fun England closed its borders.

 

[LeJosh]

We have ports y'know.

Coal is imported from Russia in the west for example.

 

[Castiel]

Debt: what debt?

The share of public debt attributed to Scotland, given the disproportionate size of the public sector it would be sizeable.

Armed forces: since Scotland has been at the forefront of the British army for centuries I see no reason for that to change

Scotland is not greater or lesser a part of the British Armed Forces than any other region, however funding it would fall upon the Scottish taxpayer and could prove to be expensive.

Currency: The pound sterling is Scottish, so England should change thier currency.

No it is not, the origin of the terminology is unknown but the most popular origin is either from the Norman name for a specific coin or because of the way coins were minted and weighed by the Anglo-Saxons.

NS Oil and Gas: It's on the SNP agenda and IS being adressed.

Scotland has no automatic right to anything. That would be an issue to be solved at the negotiation table.

 

[Gav]

Debt: what debt?

Currency: The pound sterling is Scottish, so England should change thier currency.

Pound Sterling is an English term. Pound Scots is the former Scottish currency prior to the Acts of the Union in 1707.

Debt: The UK as a country has a level of debt.. We would have to take our fair share of that if we became independent