Milly Dowler's voicemail was hacked by News of the Screws

bazaarboy · 20 Jul 2011 at 19:55

Biohazard said:
Why was Cameron initially refusing an enquiry then?

Ah, you mean the hypocrisy goes deeper than you'd like to open your eyes too

err - Cameron ordered the enquiry within days of this whole furore re-igniting
the real question is why was labour so ineffective to begin with?

Dolph · 20 Jul 2011 at 19:55

bazaarboy said:
wasn't Brown acting all outraged last week in the House of Commons?
in reality he and Blair were closer mates with Murdoch than most people appreciate

all the hacking happened while labour were in power, the police were ineffective, the then labour government were also happy to collude and sweep the whole thing under the carpet - but now it's all about "outrage", and "errors of judgement" - the hypocrisy is unreal

The entirety of the labour party seems to be suffering from early onset dementia, they have completely forgotten what they did in power, it's the only explanation. I mean, they couldn't be deliberately hypocritical, could they?

Biohazard · 20 Jul 2011 at 19:55

Dolph said:
No, it didn't, as well you know. However, it also acknowledged that although Coulson was accountable for the failure, and thus correct to resign, he was not responsible or aware of it based on the evidence available.

According to his own evidence, which was clouded overall with suspicion over the co-operation of the NI staff. "Collective amnesia" - 2009. Select Committee.

Yes, he and they had nothing to hide after all didn't they...

Dolph said:
Well, if blacklisting of employees is acceptable, surely in the interests of fairness and equality, it has to apply from the top to the bottom of the employment market? Maybe we need a database of employee blacklisting based on everything from hearsay to disciplinary action open to all employers...

Straw man.

Biohazard · 20 Jul 2011 at 19:56

bazaarboy said:
err - Cameron ordered the enquiry within days of this whole furore re-igniting
the real question is why was labour so ineffective to begin with?

No he didn't. He refused before the 'furore', which is exactly the same inane 'spot light fallacy' accusation you are throwing at Labour.

Dolph · 20 Jul 2011 at 19:57

Biohazard said:
According to his own evidence, which was clouded overall with suspicion over the co-operation of the NI staff. "Collective amnesia" - 2009. Select Committee.

Yes, he and they had nothing to hide after all didn't they...

So how is that Cameron's fault again? Perhaps he, unlike you, believes the idea of innocent until proven guilty?

Straw man.

Not really, you just want double standards.

Hatter The Mad · 20 Jul 2011 at 19:57

Dolph said:
Not really, you just want double standards.

Precisely the problem

Biohazard · 20 Jul 2011 at 19:58

Dolph said:
So how is that Cameron's fault again?

Ever heard of the concept of responsibility and more importantly, sound judgement?

It can hardly be called that in light of the evidence available at the time.

Dolph said:
Not really, you just want double standards.

Yes really, it is a straw man.

You just want double standards is also a straw man.

Discredited press, or failed press, should not be escorted straight in the back door to Government. Government is unique in it's sensativities and considerations, particularly that level of influence and power.

If I resigned because I repeatedly failed at my job, I don't think the civil service would be looking at my CV for too long.

bazaarboy · 20 Jul 2011 at 20:01

Biohazard said:
No he didn't. He refused before the 'furore', which is exactly the same inane 'spot light fallacy' accusation you are throwing at Labour.

a somewhat naive argument to make

no politician would actively seek an inquiry - not labour then, not conservative now - in the face of hard facts Cameron basically agreed to it

the point I'm making is why were labour so incompetent during the initial investigation, then pretend to be outraged now? secondly the mavity of this whole thing does not justify the amazing waste of time Milliband is turning this into

bazaarboy · 20 Jul 2011 at 20:04

Biohazard said:
Ever heard of the concept of responsibility and more importantly, sound judgement?

over-cooking this a little? are there no other more pressing problems with the country?
the PM asked for assurances from Coulson and received them, turns out he was lied to - Coulson was forced out months ago, and is now facing a criminal charge

Biohazard · 20 Jul 2011 at 20:04

bazaarboy said:
a somewhat naive argument to make

no politician would actively seek an inquiry - not labour then, not conservative now - in the face of hard facts Cameron basically agreed to it

Too late, which is exactly what you throw at Labour. It not being confortable for them to do so, and Cameron only moved to try to stave off the water lapping around his feet.

bazaarboy said:
the point I'm making is why were labour so incompetent during the initial investigation, then pretend to be outraged now? secondly the mavity of this whole thing does not justify the amazing waste of time Milliband is turning this into

I believe you have to ask the Met about a significant portion of that, and Sir Gus O'Donnell apparently.

Biohazard · 20 Jul 2011 at 20:05

bazaarboy said:
over-cooking this a little? are there no other more pressing problems with the country?

Ah yes, when the argument doesn't suit the argument doesn't matter - right?

There are more pressing problems, but we aren't talking about them are we.

bazaarboy said:
the PM asked for assurances from Coulson and received them, turns out he was lied to - Coulson was forced out months ago, and is now facing a criminal charge

And wasn't that a little bit nieve?

bazaarboy · 20 Jul 2011 at 20:11

Biohazard said:
Ah yes, when the argument doesn't suit the argument doesn't matter - right?
There are more pressing problems, but we aren't talking about them are we.

that's the point, it's only an issue because labour won't let it rest

Biohazard said:
Too late, which is exactly what you throw at Labour. It not being confortable for them to do so, and Cameron only moved to try to stave off the water lapping around his feet.

so, labour cause a mess, current gov't has to sort out - labour supporters are critical of action taken... recurring theme here?

Biohazard said:
I believe you have to ask the Met about a significant portion of that, and Sir Gus O'Donnell apparently.

sure, the then political leadership knew nufin' guv'...

Biohazard · 20 Jul 2011 at 20:12

bazaarboy said:
that's the point, it's only an issue because labour won't let it rest

You honestly believe that?

:confused:

bazaarboy said:
so, labour cause a mess, current gov't has to sort out - labour supporters are critical of action taken... recurring theme here?

Labour caused illegality at News International?

Scraping the barrel any?

bazaarboy said:
sure, the then political leadership knew nufin' guv'...

Ah, Labour did... but Cameron didn't?

Sweet.

bazaarboy · 20 Jul 2011 at 20:16

Biohazard said:
You honestly believe that?

yes, Milliband thinks he's scoring points, most people are happy to let this subject rest

Biohazard said:
Labour caused illegality at News International?
Scraping the barrel any?

how did you infer that? labour caused the mess by not doing what the current government is doing, calling an inquiry

Freakbro · 20 Jul 2011 at 20:18

Dolph said:
The entirety of the labour party seems to be suffering from early onset dementia, they have completely forgotten what they did in power, it's the only explanation. I mean, they couldn't be deliberately hypocritical, could they?

Your acting like this is the first change of goverment you have ever seen :rolleyes:

Every party act like this when they go into opposition, it's nothing unique to Labour.

Biohazard · 20 Jul 2011 at 20:18

bazaarboy said:
yes, Milliband thinks he's scoring points, most people are happy to let this subject rest

I would suggest that you are wading against public opinion here.

bazaarboy said:
how did you infer that? labour caused the mess by not doing what the current government is doing, calling an inquiry

You really aren't getting this are you?

The current Government only done it when it suited the Premier, not out of a moral obligation. Otherwise, this would have all happened a year ago. It did not. Fail.

bazaarboy · 20 Jul 2011 at 20:27

Biohazard said:
You really aren't getting this are you?
The current Government only done it when it suited the Premier, not out of a moral obligation. Otherwise, this would have all happened a year ago. It did not. Fail.

Do you believe a labour gov't would have called an inquiry sooner? or that they would behave more 'morally'?

Biohazard · 20 Jul 2011 at 20:35

bazaarboy said:
Do you believe a labour gov't would have called an inquiry sooner? or that they would behave more 'morally'?

Irrelevent.

But to answer your question, no. They are both as bad as each other.

bazaarboy · 20 Jul 2011 at 20:41

Biohazard said:
Irrelevent.

But to answer your question, no. They are both as bad as each other.

highly relevant - I'm not arguing a pro-tory point, I'm suggesting that this isn't a big a story as some people are making it to be

slightly dodgy journalism ought to be preserved - this is the point I'm was making earlier, eg MPs expenses. With all due respect to the Dowler family, who were victims twice over, the mavity of the crime committed is relatively small

add to that Milliband's insistence to keep this issue going - how about challenging the gov't on some real issues?

Slam62 · 20 Jul 2011 at 20:48

At the end of the day there is only one politician who employed Coulson and had special dinners with the Murdochs and Brooks, the fact that he is the PM and Murdoch was trying to buy BskyB at the time.