Riots in Tottenham, London! (NO RACIST COMMENTS)

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sanaxe1 said:
so if looters are traitors to the state. What does that make a guy calling for mass murders of British citizens?
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Depending on where they are from (like outside the country for example) I'd call them enemies of the state. A traitor is worse though. Someone who lives here and is given all the benefits of living in this country (which are a lot compared to loads of other places in this world) and then repay society by perpurtrating acst such as all this rioting.
 
Paul11 said:
national service is a great idea

if your 18 and not in study or work, your in the army

then you will learn discipline, hard work, skills, working as a team, and not have time to hang around complaining that you have nothing to do
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Just echoing the thoughts of Stolly a few posts above. National Service would not work, it would be counter productive. All arms of the services are highly specialised and the return from the effort and funding the training of National Service draftees would be neglible in the scheme of things. Not to mention the current overstretch and the pending personnel cuts.
 
Dolph said:
The police force are there to serve the public, if they are not happy with the best and most efficient ways of providing the service, then they shouldn't be there.

This attitude that we have to pander to public sector workers over issues of best practice makes no sense to me. The best way to run the force is surely the way that provides the best results at the most efficient cost to the taxpayer, not to keep things because they've happened before or because, even though it's bad practice, it keeps the staff happy.



How is a warranted police officer working in the HR department keeping you safe? This is the sort of officer number inflation that's been occurring, huge numbers of 'officers' in roles that (a) don't require an officer and (b) are taking officer positions away from actually serving the public. No police officer should be in a position that doesn't require a warranted officer.
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Do you have stats as to the number of office workers v number of active officers?

I do not agree on the putting all public workers in the same basket either, and carry on with the fallacy that anything public equates is waste. Police, army, and many others do an excellent job to keep this country running. Could it be better? Of course, but certainly not by demonising all those workers.

I have long worked for and with many multinational companies, and the waste that I have seen there is orders of magnitude higher than any government in the planet.
 
Stolly said:
Its a terrible idea, the services are a professional body with a difficult job to do, not social workers.
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at 18 a person can still be moulded to become a "professional" as you call it

Chasser said:
National Service would not work, it would be counter productive. All arms of the services are highly specialised and the return from the effort and funding the training of National Service draftees would be neglible in the scheme of things. Not to mention the current overstretch and the pending personnel cuts.
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the people that join the army are not specialised when they join, they are specialised after they get training.

funding and personnel cuts is another matter, which i understand would be the problem. but how much is it costing to keep these people with government handouts now ?
 
StriderX said:
Stop taking the easy route out of this, we have serious problems to solve in this nation and pointing one finger is not going to help, blame is on everyone, last government, this government, ignorance of the systems, parental problems, economic situation, environment these people live in...the list is so long that we should be ashamed of ourselves not a bunch of hooligans, all they deserve is pity, pity simply because its not some violent action many morons want to see done to these people, we are not barbarians, this is not the dark ages any more, we can and will solve this problem correctly or our country will never move forward.

So what if we imprison them or kill them, it still leaves the problem UNSOLVED, i wish people with no actual insight would just keep it to themselves.
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They still need to be imprisoned and blaming everyone isn't going to the solve the 'problem', whatever you may deem that problem to be for these people to act (I don't call it a reaction) in the way that they have. Most people have been hit by the turn of the economy, other people live in similar high rise council housing and have made it work. Simply putting blame on others for the actions that a group has actively and knowingly taken is not solving that issue either.
Whilst it is not the easiest of areas and environments to grow up in they can be helped by going to prison and reforming for the crimes they have committed. That will teach them at least one thing which is there are consequences for their actions.
 
Dolph said:
If I was Cameron now, I'd double bluff those opportunistically calling for the police cuts to be reversed. I'd confirm that we're reversing the budget cuts to the police force, but that all the efficiency improvements, the ending of spanish practices around overtime, the reform of pensions and medical retirement of all 'officers' no longer fit for frontline duty would continue, and all the money saved would be spent on new active street police only :)

Public support would be high, and it would wonderfully outmaneuver the political behaviour of the police in trying to preserve indefensibly outdated working practices by hiding behind the riot.
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What Spanish practices with regards to overtime Dolph ?

Also, what working practices are indefensibly outdated ?
 
hola_adios said:
Do you have stats as to the number of office workers v number of active officers?
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I posted them earlier in the thread.

I do not agree on the putting all public workers in the same basket either, and carry on with the fallacy that anything public equates is waste. Police, army, and many others do an excellent job to keep this country running. Could it be better? Of course, but certainly not by demonising all those workers.
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I don't go with that fallacy either, there are some things that should always remain with the state (particularly anything such as the police force which requires access to the state monopoly on force). I'm also not demonsing the workers, I'm demonising some of the current practices.

I have long worked for and with many multinational companies, and the waste that I have seen there is orders of magnitude higher than any government in the planet.
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Strange how all the actual, statistical evidence disagrees with you when it comes to efficiency.

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/articles/nojournal/public-service-labour-productivity-article.pdf
 
Benefit cash should be replaced with a system that pays rent and bills directly, first and foremost, from the money that people receive.

The rest of the cash should be given mostly in food stamps which allow the claimants to eat and survive. They should also receive assistance with travel to and from any job interviews and indeed any job they get, for a certain period of time.

As for the police, they've gone from being a force to a service. It's all about serving the 'customer' now rather than protecting the public. You can read pages upon pages of accurate descriptions of what it's like to be a modern police officer, as well as what needs to change over on Inspector Gadget's blog. Buying his very cheap book would also be a good idea to show you just what modern policing is like.

It's all health and safety, political correctness, keeping 'customers' happy (namely the prisoners rather than the citizens they are meant to protect) and a whole massive bunch of 9-5 workers who are never out on the streets and simply exist to police the police.

Hopefully all of the cuts to the police 'service' will be amongst those civil service office workers who contribute very little to the actual business of protecting the public and law abiding citizens.

There are simply so many things wrong in so many areas in this country right now that it will take some severe and decisive action for a prolonged period of time to get anywhere near fixing it. This will pretty much never happen as the parties are far too adept at media manipulation and forcing their own agendas around. There is almost no trust left in the principle of government at all any more amongst a huge swathe of our population. It's never going to be restored by constant lies and manipulation for personal agendas.

Labour will sit there and tell you everything bad is because of Tory cuts, they'll lie and cheat their way back into power quite happily. They wont ever acknowledge or admit what they did in their last thirteen years of power. There is no honesty and very few morals left amongst top level politicians.

The ones that are there with a genuine passion to serve the country and make things better are hopelessly entwined and manipulated by the career politicians who have massive agendas and secrets to cover up and hide.

When I sit and think about all the problems we face, why we face them and the near impossible chance of them ever being solved properly, I start to understand why so many people are content to get back to Labour's hand out culture. They don't want to think about the future of paying off this insane debt, they can't even handle a tiny cut to the insane deficit, the debt hasn't even been touched yet, it's still increasing rapidly. Frankly, I don't really want to sit here and think about the future of paying all that off, the attitude in the country over the tiniest of cuts is already bordering on anarchy.
 
Tefal said:
Copy paste us the best ones?
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Thank Mr Cameron the Big Society has become The Big Ghetto....reducing the numbers of police, fire brigade, ambulance and NHS staff has not only killed off tourism it has wrecked the life's of so many Londoner's. We are not safe under your administration. Bring back Gordon Brown.
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NICK **** HEAD CLEGG, THINKS THAT WE CAN STILL AFFORD TO CUT 16000 POLICE OFFICERS JOBS AND STILL CONTAIN CONTROL THE RIOTS IN LONDON, MANCHESTER AND AROUND BRITAIN, IS THE **** AWARE THAT THERE WAS MORE THAN 16000 POLICE ON THE STREETS OF LONDON ALONE LAST WEEK, WHERE IS MILLIBAND, WHY IS HE NOT STANDINNG UP TO THIS?????????
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-the Labour party they really built Uk


-funny how this wasnt going on while labour were in power though?
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-GET GORDON BROWN BACK AS PM!!!!!!!!!!!!


-As wise as this would be, he's damaged goods now, too many people have been convinced by Tory media. Ed might not be the logical choice buy he's probably one of the best options at the moment.
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^LOL!!
 
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I would love for a TV station to do a social experiment and broadcast it live, think Big Brother.

Take two groups of people, one group from the civilised world from a wide degree of professions, then one group from the chav world. Give them a fully working mini society with all the key things which makes the UK function and let them go at it for 2 months. See which one descends into chaos.....
 
$loth said:
They still need to be imprisoned and blaming everyone isn't going to the solve the 'problem', whatever you may deem that problem to be for these people to act (I don't call it a reaction) in the way that they have. Most people have been hit by the turn of the economy, other people live in similar high rise council housing and have made it work. Simply putting blame on others for the actions that a group has actively and knowingly taken is not solving that issue either.
Whilst it is not the easiest of areas and environments to grow up in they can be helped by going to prison and reforming for the crimes they have committed. That will teach them at least one thing which is there are consequences for their actions.
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In our prisons?

Our prisons are better to live in than the crappy houses they probably live in now, its no where near a deterant.

Plus im blaming everyone because its correct to do so, we live in a democracy, everyone is guilty of complacency here, these yobs deserve their time in prison, but i have no reason to believe the government right now can solve the problems at the core of the issue, WE must solve it, we cant wait on some worthless chain of political bull out of Westminster, which will take god only knows how many years just to think of something...
 
Von Smallhausen said:
What Spanish practices with regards to overtime Dolph ?
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The most obvious would be the one where a shift change is done, no extra hours are worked, but pay is at overtime rates. (Yes, I'm aware this does not occur within all forces). Add in things like a chronic lack of overtime monitoring or validation and it is clear that some things need to change.

Other such things are all noted in the following source.

http://library.npia.police.uk/docs/homeoffice/police-overtime.pdf

Also, what working practices are indefensibly outdated ?
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Well, the use of warranted officers for roles not requiring a warrant, and counting them in officer numbers, and paying them officer rates would be one...
 
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