Riots in Tottenham, London! (NO RACIST COMMENTS)

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Andy90 said:
Von Smallhausen and I probably base our position on pounding the Streets for years,, getting punched, spat at, covered in blood, abused, assaullted so that people like you Dolph, can sit quietly in your comfy room in front of your computer copying and pasting statistics and weblinks.

I'm going to mangle an old saying.... those that can do, those that cannot research......
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Massive respect to you Andy (and your fellow coppers here), you must have seen the same changes that my Father, Brother and sister in law saw when they were police oficers.

As the son of a police officer I was beaten up and abused at school, so I can empathise with what it must be like for you and your colleagues.

These people here have never had to scrape people up off the streets, administer cpr while they wait for an ambulance to carry off a DOA to the hospital, or worse, visit a wife and children to tell them daddy isn't coming home ever again. Their experince of the police is their odd dealing, some media and the odd home office report.

People think the Police are an unneccessary expense until they wonder why they cannot catch the thieves that stole their car radio or maybe won't even visit them.

IMHO stop spending on armed forces and fighting abroad and start thinking about home and increased police spending.
 
Though I fundamentally disagree with Dolph I feel compelled to defend him when he says that police opinion isn't really evidence. It's all very well to say you've been pounding the beat for 10 years but you're also part of the system and you can't always see the cracks in a house from the inside - that's why the NPIA exists, to take an independent critical look at the police. One of the key measure's of an organisation's performance is to ask the consumers of their service i.e. us - I think the vigilante gangs patrolling the streets of London and Birmingham are a damning inditement.

I don't see what anyone does for a living or in their spare time makes their opinions on an internet forum any less valid.
 
dolph, i am genuinely interested to know what you do (some sort of systems analyst but that's a wide umbrella). can you atleast say what industry?
 
scorza said:
I don't see what anyone does for a living or in their spare time makes their opinions on an internet forum any less valid.
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It can provide context though - in this thread, the opinions of two of the posters are put into context and supported through our knowledge that they are servicing police officers.
 
[TW]Fox;19809606 said:
Are you suggesting there are only two levels of detail one can provide in an answer, those being 'Ridiculously vague and useless' with the only alternative being 'Excessively specific'?

I mean, it isn't hard for somebody to say 'I am am accountant' instead of either 'I work with numbers' or 'I sit by the window at ABC Accounting Limited, Norwich, at 23 High Street'.

Infact, of those three answers, one is clearly the most useful...
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I work in business intelligence if you really must know.
 
scorza said:
I don't see what anyone does for a living or in their spare time makes their opinions on an internet forum any less valid.
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it does though. i could sit here and **** off a lot of public sector workers, job centre for example but i don't know what goes on behind the scene, the red tape, the politics etc. however, if i ask a person who does it day in and day out, (we've got 2 people to ask in this instance) then one gets a much better insight into the actual goings on. kind of like an undercover, inside report.
 
scorza said:
Though I fundamentally disagree with Dolph I feel compelled to defend him when he says that police opinion isn't really evidence. It's all very well to say you've been pounding the beat for 10 years but you're also part of the system and you can't always see the cracks in a house from the inside - that's why the NPIA exists, to take an independent critical look at the police. One of the key measure's of an organisation's performance is to ask the consumers of their service i.e. us - I think the vigilante gangs patrolling the streets of London and Birmingham are a damning inditement.

I don't see what anyone does for a living or in their spare time makes their opinions on an internet forum any less valid.
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Thanks Scorza, we may disagree a lot, but you know how to debate a subject.

I am not closed on this matter, I'm just in need of something more to overturn independent research than the opinion of a couple of staff members.
 
[TW]Fox;19809606 said:
Are you suggesting there are only two levels of detail one can provide in an answer, those being 'Ridiculously vague and useless' with the only alternative being 'Excessively specific'?
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In another thread that's descended from exciting up to the second reports on some of the most widespread riots the countries ever faced to Dolph knowing everything again, this got a good chuckle.
 
Dolph said:
I am not closed on this matter, I'm just in need of something more to overturn independent research than the opinion of a couple of staff members.
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It is the definition of independant that concerns me. It is presumeably contracted to an agency who are employed to come up with the feasibility of making cuts in manpower.

To my mind they are being paid to come up with a way of saving money and they had a perception that the CID etc don't contribute enough. That smacks of not understanding what CID do properly or believing that already overburdened beat coppers can do more of the work CID do now. (just using one example here).

One thing I have learned over the years is how often so called independant research experts get it wrong through insufficient understanding of the business. They base too much on individual examples of hindsight and not enough on day to day realitys. Anecdotal evidence can be used to prove anything, and 99.9% of the time, the people doing the work have better ideas and sounder basis for comment, they just rarely get asked.
 
Captain Planet said:
Lol :)



As someone who has served frontline, what is your opinion on how well the police situation was handled? What could be changed if need be?
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I think Von Smallhausen may be better suited to answer this question than I , since I think he is PSU (Riot trained), I'm just Crowd Control trained.

Its always going to be difficult to contain fast moving hit and run rioting like the scenes that we all viewed in London, Manchester and other Cities across the UK in the last week.

Social media, mobile phones, twitter etc clearly have been used very effectively by Criminals to mobilise people and plan attacks. The Police response is always going to lag behind them. That said I think it is a double edged sword to suggest cutting off Social media sites - many people caught up within the riots used them to keep in touch with friends and family to reassure them they were safe, to remove this would cause more tension and fear within society.

It takes time to bring in additional resources - bear in mind during the day you've got a shift on earlies, one on lates and one on nights and one / possibly two shifts on days off. Couple this with none front line Officers and you've suddenly reduced you're available officers considerably. You may have overlapping shifts to cover peak periods but the long and short of it is Officers cannot be on duty 24/7 they need days off.

My own Force were like many Forces very quick to respond to calls for additional Officers from the Metropolitan Police. The Police Service is very good at this and it is amazing how many Officers can be supplied at short notice without impacting too greatly on operational Policing in their home areas.

One of the biggest problems within Riot situations is the vulnerability of the other Emergency services - the Fire Brigade and Ambulance Service are simply not equipped to stand up to sustained attacks from Rioters - quite clearly they need better equipment, such as vehicles that can get in and operate under extreme conditons - perhaps much of the damage caused by Fire could have been minimised.
 
has anything much happened tonight? ive been watching a guy run over a police dog on traffic cops (the dog was ok) and an incredibly boring episode of torchwood (seriously, whoever wrote that needs to be shot, its crap)
 
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