Riots in Tottenham, London! (NO RACIST COMMENTS)

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Tunney said:
You mean like how the NHS was recently ranked one of the most efficient healthcare systems in the world?
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One report moving against the trend is hardly a good indicator, we are still letting many people die or live life in pain unnecessarily.

Tax is obviously an emotive subject for people but look at the facts. Countries with high taxes (i.e. Denmark) are the happiest and healthiest in the world.
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Funny that you should mention Denmark, given how their regulation of business and employment is far more liberal than ours.
 
Dj_Jestar said:
Or would you prefer the "underclass" (to coin a poignantly snobbish phrase) were rehabilitated to not break the law in the first place, and thus not be "underclass"?
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and how will you do that?

for those that don't want to change how will you force them to?
 
robgmun said:
Everyone that riots is currently going through the court system, if anything i think this weekend will see the lowest crime rate in some years!
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I can't see many people causing a problem on the streets and that includes all those rowdies after throwing out time.
 
Tunney said:
Tax is obviously an emotive subject for people but look at the facts. Countries with high taxes (i.e. Denmark) are the happiest and healthiest in the world.
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How do you know the cause of their happiness is because of the high tax rate?

Of course it's not.
 
Tefal said:
and how will you do that?

for those that don't want to change how will you force them to?
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You and I don't want to sit on our backsides all day sponging off the government. So what is it that we have they don't? How about teaching them this missing "thing" for a start. :)

I don't know the exact answer, so please don't ask for one. However, history and plain common sense tells us that simply punishing people doesn't work. They will just reoffend time and time again. If "we" up the ante of the punishment, the "underclass" will just cause more riots.
 
Dj_Jestar said:
Or would you prefer the "underclass" (to coin a poignantly snobbish phrase) were rehabilitated to not break the law in the first place, and thus not be "underclass"?
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Well they're not working class which I've seen the press mention a couple of times which is somewhat offensive to working class people. The underclass aren't necessarily criminals, they're the people that view the benefits system as a lifestyle choice. So how do you get them into work?

As I said, benefits are meant to be a safety net, for people to survive comfortably on them with the trappings of wealth that those in work struggle to afford is just plain madness.
 
Jokester said:
Well they're not working class which I've seen the press mention a couple of times which is somewhat offensive to working class people. The underclass aren't necessarily criminals, they're the people that view the benefits system as a lifestyle choice. So how do you get them into work?

As I said, benefits are meant to be a safety net, for people to survive comfortably on them with the trappings of wealth that those in work struggle to afford is just plain madness.
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See my post above yours. :)

Personally, I just see people. I don't see "working class" nor do I see "underclass".
 
Mr Jack said:
Actually it's countries with high equality that are the happiest an healthiest in the world (and score highest on pretty much any other positive metric you care to mention). Although high equality countries usually have higher taxes, they don't have to. Japan, for example, has low taxes but performs very well on most metrics.

Taxes are a useful means of manipulating equality because they're a forceful method available to government but they're not the only way of achieving it. It's just rather less clear how you might implement policy to achieve it.
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This is because Japan achieves lower income inequality by having a smaller differential between high and low wages. The workers and management all share in the success or otherwise of a business. While British and US car manufacturers thought they had to cut pay, benefits and conditions to the bone for their production line workers, the Japanese realised that a content worker was likely to be a productive one. This is why the Japanese can successfully manufacture cars in the UK while Ford, GM and Rover struggle.
 
Strife212 said:
But the thing that is being discussed is tax.
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We are, but it is worth remembering that any country can only extract via taxation the level the country is willing to tolerate. That's the reason why, no matter how the taxation has been structured, the UK has never managed to raise much more than 40% of GDP in taxation, and even that is grudgingly.

Perhaps if there was greater freedom, and a greater sense of getting value for money, the UK would tolerate a higher tax burden, but we don't.
 
Well I think they should execute everyone, till only one good man and woman is left, then redistribute all the wealth between the two of them, so we can start all over again.

Its the only way to be sure.
 
Goberpiles316 said:
Very sad

A HERO left in a coma after tackling rioters in Ealing died last night — triggering a murder inquiry.

It is believed the family of Richard Bowes, 68, agreed to switch off his life support.

He was attacked in West London on Monday as he tried to fight a bin fire.

His sister, Anne Wilderspin, 73, of Matlock, Derbys, was traced yesterday. A 22-year-old man has been arrested on suspicion of murder.

Ealing Council was flying the Union Jack over its town hall at half-mast today as a mark of respect for him.
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They've arrested a 22 year old on suspicion of his murder.
 
scorza said:
This is because Japan achieves lower income inequality by having a smaller differential between high and low wages. The workers and management all share in the success or otherwise of a business. While British and US car manufacturers thought they had to cut pay, benefits and conditions to the bone for their production line workers, the Japanese realised that a content worker was likely to be a productive one. This is why the Japanese can successfully manufacture cars in the UK while Ford, GM and Rover struggle.
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While this is true, it is also cultural, not the result of state enforcement. To think that we could get the same results in the UK through force is foolish, all that would happen is resentment.

What we need to do is encourage share ownership, cooperation and so on within the companies, by removing the current significant penalities for companies that try to engage their employees in this way.

Of course, it might not work, Thatcher tried it with BT etc, and all that happened was the workers and public sold the shares for a quick buck...
 
That NHS report. One of the judging criteria how much money is spent on healthcare as a %GDP. That isn't efficiency, it is simply how much is spent.

Ignoring all that we have one of the worst diagnosis to death ratios of the western world, i.e. people die sooner here after being diagnosed. Probably due to disparity of drugs available from PCT to PCT.
 
Dj_Jestar said:
You and I don't want to sit on our backsides all day sponging off the government. So what is it that we have they don't? How about teaching them this missing "thing" for a start. :)

I don't know the exact answer, so please don't ask for one. However, history and plain common sense tells us that simply punishing people doesn't work. They will just reoffend time and time again. If "we" up the ante of the punishment, the "underclass" will just cause more riots.
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But without an alternative...


saying "rehabilitate them" is all well and good but if you don't knwo how you cant help the ones that can be helped, and for those that don't want change then by "rehabilitate" you just mean brainwash, force or manipulate.
 
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