"Trains are a rich man's toy" says Transport Minister.

Its go nothing to do with geography and everything to do with the fact that the train from Norwich only going 50mph and the ones to London going anywhere between 70-100+ depending on which ones you get.

No, it has everything to do with geography.

I cannot think of a single passenger train in service in this country with a maximum speed of 50mph. Even the crappy Sprinter units have a max speed of 75mph. What you mean is that the 'average' speed of the service is 50mph and this is limited by... wait for it... the geography of the network. We have mainline railways signalled for high speed running going into London down the West Coast, the East Coast and up from the Westcountry. We do not have such railways going West to East avoiding London, therefore to travel from Birmingham to Norwich means you are not heading directly there at 125mph. And why would you, the number of people who wish to travel from Birmingham to Norwich is a handful compared to those travelling from Birmingham to London. It makes no sense to have a direct high speed line between these two cities in the same way as it makes no sense to have a direct Motorway link between these two cities.

It's pretty much the same with the Motorway network. Get into a car and drive from Birmingham to London and it's Motorway all the way. Birmingham to Glasgow and it's Motorway all the way. Bristol to London and it's Motorway all the way. Drive from Birmingham to Norwich and you meander across a few Motorways, go down South a bit, before eventually heading back North East towards Norwich up A roads.

Travel time from the rest of the country, ie not London, to Norwich is limited by its geographical location and not because 'lulz the trains suck and only go at 50mph'.

Pretty easy to understand. It's the same in many countries. I've not checked but I'd imagine if you travel East to West in France completely avoiding Paris, perhaps from Dijon to Bordeaux, you'll find a distinct lack of those wonderful TGV services you think make up the entire French rail network. Only by going into Paris and back out can you benefit from High Speed rail.

It's entirely possible to have rail infrastructure that serves the entire country with a network of direct lines. Back in the 1950's we had a lot more railway lines than we do now. But the cost of building and maintaining such a network would be even higher and I suspect those bitching now about how long it takes and how much it costs would be first in the queue to have a cry about the government spending even more than the billions it currently subsidises the rail network by..
 
I pay £420 a month, when i started this journey 3 years ago it was more then £100 cheaper, for a service that is late at least half the time, no chance of getting a seat for the first hour of the journey home, often canceled at the last minute with rude staff, the rail network really should be renationalised and run as a not for profit pubic service.
 
Geography i.e the landscape, or where people live, has nothing to do with the tracks not being able to cope with high speed rail. It's demand. that doesn't state why when the tracks were first built they weren't built to a higher standard.

It's all to do with the romans. Hence no grid structure in the UK. Many roads and rail lines follow old roman roads. Other countries have got over it. In Germany it very easy to get trains without going through Berlin.

Other countries mange a decent rail service. We suck compared our European neighbours. Of course they many have government owned services. We sold ours.
 
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The trains in the UK are fascist. Since quasi-privatization they have been more and more fascist. They have all the benefits of public sector (monopolized, fake competition, centralized fares,over zealous unions) and all the benefits of private sector (profits).

The only way to reduce fares on the train network would be to have direct competition and decentralize the fare system. So we could have two train companies competing on the same tracks at the same times. This way if a train arrives with booked seats and toilets etc for the same price as the current ones that are falling apart with everyone standing on top of each other. This will improve train punctuationality and the quality of the trains themselves and reduce costs as the trains compete for passengers, far better than any government regulator doing backhand deals.

I pay £220 a month to go 17miles on an overcrowded train that is slow and poor quality, seating is often falling apart, the train itself is dirty outside and inside, at least once a week there is a delay of some kind. But why do they care, not like i can chose another train, the other option are buses which are no better or going on a bike.
 
How do you run two trains on same track at same time. Didn't you even think about that.

What it needs doing is incorporating into network rail, or a company the same. "private" company run with aim of a profit and all profit has to be reinvested. But needs to be less public and union like.
 
Geography i.e the landscape, or where people live, has nothing to do with the tracks not being able to cope with high speed rail. It's demand. that doesn't state why when the tracks were first built they weren't built to a higher standard.

It's all to do with the romans. Hence no grid structure in the UK. Many roads and rail lines follow old roman roads. Other countries have got over it. In Germany it very easy to get trains without going through Berlin.

Other countries mange a decent rail service. We suck compared our European neighbours. Of course they many have government owned services. We sold ours.

It is about the relative location of each city - ie, geography.

Like many countries our network is based, like it or not, around the capital city. This is not unusual - it's the same in places like France. Most large cities have very good links with London. It's a hub and spoke model. This works brilliantly for travel from major population areas into London, or from major population areas to other major population areas along the route to London but obviously if you want to travel between cities on different 'spokes' then you must rely on lines designed not to take you specifically from Birmingham to Norwich but via places in between as well.

There was absolutely nothing wrong with the standard our rail network was BUILT to. Infact, it was built to exceptionally high standards. Given that most of it was built in the 1800's and remains in use today, I'd say thats a pretty good testament to the very high standards it was originally designed to. We pioneered the railways - we brought the to the world. The downside of this is that, like most major civil engineering projects, you are often stuck with what you originally designed. Building a new network from scratch, as is the case in places like France with the TGV network, makes it far easier to end up with fit for purpose high capacity high speed rail. We can't really do that. Our population density is higher for a start, so decimating the entire country by installing loads of direct high speed rail networks including one to link Birmingham and Norwich is unreasonable. I mean just look at the whinging and moaning going on as a result of the decision to build the HS2 link? Instead we have to take a different approach - increase capacity on existing lines. This is far more difficult than most people in internet threads think, especially as it's difficult to do any sort of work without major disruption to existing travellers, again causing more internet 'trains sux' arguments.

If we had a much larger country with reams of open space we too could have a network of TGV-style dedicated high speed rail lines. There would also be more demand for such lines - given the great distances involved. But we don't, so we don't.

I don't disagree that there are major issues with our rail network and that there are also major issues with the fare structure. But I also think it comes in for a lot of un-neccesary flack from people who either don't understand or simply don't care about the challenges involved with operating such a network.

It remains my humble opinion that the Railways Act of 1993 is the biggest mistake in the history of our transport system and is responsible for much of the issues that we face today. You cannot blame a private company for attempting to maximise profit. The primary goal of a private company is to maximise shareholder value. This is why they exist. The only way to prevent companies working purely for shareholder value is to have loads of complex regulation, which we have (And my gosh is it ridiculous, did you know some of it even stifles competition to avoid reducing the attractiveness of some of the other franchises?). And IMHO when it comes to public services, public ownership, for all its inefficiencies, is better than heavily regulated private ownership.

In it's dying days, the Intercity sector of British Rail was profitable - and that includes accounting for the fact that the CrossCountry section of Intercity was loss making. Why? Because long-distance Intercity rail can be run with almost airline levels of efficiency which increase profitability, whereas the once an hour service to Middle of Nowhere Central which provides a lifeline for its residents never can. Much of the rail network is and always will be loss making - it simply costs more to run than it will ever generate in income but as a valuable public service, it should remain. And is why the government pumps billions in subsidies into the network each year...

Commuters complaints about overcrowding are an interesting one. Is it even reasonable to expect a commuter rail service into a capital city to have ample spare seating in rush hour? Can you imagine how much cost and overcapacity at offpeak times it would introduce? Everyone holds Japan up as a utopia of railway awesomeness. Have you SEEN the levels of overcrowding on a Japanese commuter train?

Commuter rail into capital cities -anywhere in the world - is very busy. It's just how it works.

The other curious issue is peoples expectation that there should be available value priced walk-on long distance fares. Why do people think this? Do they expect to be able to pitch up at Heathrow for a 4 hour flight an hour before it takes off and buy a cheap ticket? Of course not, so why is a 4 hour train journey any different? You HAVE to manage capacity and price is the best way to do this. Ever increasing prices closer to the date of travel is an excellent way of managing capacity and ensuring that 500 people don't decide to buy a ticket for a train with 300 reserved advance purchase seats and total capacity of only 600 10 minutes before travel. The majority of people, even those who don't care to admit it, will not routinely make impulse zero-notice many-hundred-mile rail journeys. The few that do must pay for that.

Devils advocate: According to the laws of supply and demand, price isn't high enough...
 
It was terrible as a student seeing the prices go up all the time, I think when I started 3 years ago it was £1.90 and it's something like £3.10 now, only 9 minute train journey.

got a 15 min train journey here going between two large train stations (reading and slough)

£7.60 for a single :eek:
 
got a 15 min train journey here going between two large train stations (reading and slough)

£7.60 for a single :eek:

The disparity between some of the ticket prices is something that really needs looking at. Control for ticket prices rests with different operators depending on the route in question.

This is why a return from Plymouth to Tiverton Parkway is £9.50 for a journey of 1 hour 15 minutes and 70 miles whereas a return from Tiverton Parkway to Bristol is a staggering £22 - more than double - despite being only 47 minutes and 55 miles or so.
 
Often faster and much cheaper to travel long distance by car in my experience.

Based on the Crewe to Euston route i used to do i don't agree, took no time to get to London, i was served breakfast in the mornings and evening meal plus wine on the way back, means i get home happy and relaxed, you simply can't put a cost on that, great service imho.
 
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I pay £220 a month to go 17miles on an overcrowded train that is slow and poor quality, seating is often falling apart, the train itself is dirty outside and inside, at least once a week there is a delay of some kind. But why do they care, not like i can chose another train, the other option are buses which are no better or going on a bike.

Would it be cheaper and more enjoyable (minus the weather) to do your CBT and get a motorbike?
 
Based on the Crewe to Euston route i used to do i don't agree, took no time to get to London, i was served breakfast in the mornings and evening meal plus wine on the way back, means i get home happy and relaxed, you simply can't put a cost on that, great service imho.

What does that have to do with low cost? :confused:

He's saying his car is cheaper and you reply with 'Well I get a bottle of wine' :confused:

I know you were desperate to slip in the fact you travel First Class but it would have been a lot less obvious had you waited until somebody complained about how horrid the train was when that would have been a nice rebuttal ;)
 
[TW]Fox;20067430 said:
What does that have to do with low cost? :confused:

He's saying his car is cheaper and you reply with 'Well I get a bottle of wine' :confused:

It addresses the fact it's quicker and from a business point of view me being able to work while i travel saves the company money so yes it cheaper. My point was you simply can't put a price on arriving either to or from your destination relaxed and in a good frame of mind.
 
How do you run two trains on same track at same time. Didn't you even think about that.

What it needs doing is incorporating into network rail, or a company the same. "private" company run with aim of a profit and all profit has to be reinvested. But needs to be less public and union like.

What ?

the train arrives after that the other train on the same track. So train company X arrives at 8am and the train company Y arrives at 8:10am. not rocket science.
 
It's the same with all public transport nowadays...

The fares steadily go up due to greed and as a result customer rates fall, so instead of trying to attract the masses back with lower fares they simply take the easy route and keep on raising the fares to restore any lost profits. Pretty soon their only custom will be politicians (at the tax payers expense of course). :p
 
Because that would work, let's double lots of costs, half the income and you expect better service. As well as lack of capacity. Lots of routes are only every 30minutes. People would select by time of leaving regardless.
So yes it is very hard and not simples at all.
 
They should either have it one way or the other. Public or private. Having these mixed industries just creates the environments where standards go down and prices go up. AS much as i am against public railways. I would rather have it completely public with no profit motive than semi public with profit motive.
 
The only way to reduce fares on the train network would be to have direct competition and decentralize the fare system. So we could have two train companies competing on the same tracks at the same times. This way if a train arrives with booked seats and toilets etc for the same price as the current ones that are falling apart with everyone standing on top of each other. This will improve train punctuationality and the quality of the trains themselves and reduce costs as the trains compete for passengers, far better than any government regulator doing backhand deals.

Trains are not buses. It's not easy for one to get out of the way of the other, or to stop very quickly.
 
It's the same with all public transport nowadays...

The fares steadily go up due to greed and as a result customer rates fall, so instead of trying to attract the masses back with lower fares they simply take the easy route and keep on raising the fares to restore any lost profits. Pretty soon their only custom will be politicians (at the tax payers expense of course). :p

Except rail usage is growing and huge amounts of investment into better infrastructure.
 
[TW]Fox;20067256 said:
Devils advocate: According to the laws of supply and demand, price isn't high enough...

That depends on whether it is operated as a private for-profit industry or a public service.
 
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