This is what consolers playing CS looks like...LOL!

MrLOL said:
all of which will be **** all use to you if you don't have the skill.

The idea that everybody that plays a console is completely devoid of any, and that anybody who chooses a PC is somehow part of a master race and above all others is laughable.
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I'm certainly not suggesting otherwise.

But equally it would be "laughable" if you had two players of equal skill, and one has better 'conditions' (for want of a better word) than the other, yet you didn't consider one of them to have a slight advantage.

If you look at the top players/clans in games like CS/CS:S, what you will find is that the vast majority of them do not just rock up and play with default config, a pair of ****** 2W speakers, a $5 mouse running at 125hz on a 5 year old cloth pad, paired with a 60hz screen and a computer that can't sustain 60fps+. Again, I am not suggesting that this is equivalent to a console setup per se, but what I am suggesting is that the top gamers like to be able to optimise their setup and (traditionally at least) the PC has been a better platform for that sort of thing.

From what I can see, the problem is almost that opinions have swung too far in the opposition direction - now it seems that anyone who suggests that the PC might be a better platform for a particular title is insulting the skillset or knowledge of console gamers, when that isn't always what is happening. Alternatively, anyone who makes a post like mine is saying that skill is irrelevant and that setup is everything.

Let me simplify the equation a bit:

High skill + Bad setup >> Low Skill + Good Setup
...but also...
High skill + Good setup > High Skill + Bad Setup

Now, admittedly I have made some assumptions about what may or may not be possible on the different platforms, but it seems to me that the top players would want to play on PC to prevent themselves from being at a disadvantage. Even if the difference isn't there, the fact that people could believe there to potentially be a difference may push people down that route. Or in other words, even if the PC and Console platforms are equal, if top players believe the PC to be superior then you'd expect the majority of top players to play on the PC platform.
 
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HangTime said:
I'm certainly not suggesting otherwise.

But equally it would be "laughable" if you had two players of equal skill, and one has better 'conditions' (for want of a better word) than the other, yet you didn't consider one of them to have a slight advantage.

If you look at the top players/clans in games like CS/CS:S, what you will find is that the vast majority of them do not just rock up and play with default config, a pair of ****** 2W speakers, a $5 mouse running at 125hz on a 5 year old cloth pad, paired with a 60hz screen and a computer that can't sustain 60fps+. Again, I am not suggesting that this is equivalent to a console setup per se, but what I am suggesting is that the top gamers like to be able to optimise their setup and (traditionally at least) the PC has been a better platform for that sort of thing.
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Any of the Speakers/Mouse/Pad/Keyboard are more than available to console players. They don't use £5 bargain bucket headsets for consoles in MLG. And until such time that anyone can prove that the consoles will be unable to produce a decent stable FPS, for your average player a bit of luck is going to be far more use than a few FPS.

For the record I know people that will quite happily cream everyone else with a crap PC, in competition. Not everybody is a sponsored top player/clan... Why treat everyone as if they are?

HangTime said:
From what I can see, the problem is almost that opinions have swung too far in the opposition direction - now it seems that anyone who suggests that the PC might be a better platform for a particular title is insulting the skillset or knowledge of console gamers, when that isn't always what is happening. Alternatively, anyone who makes a post like mine is saying that skill is irrelevant and that setup is everything.

Let me simplify the equation a bit:

High skill + Bad setup >> Low Skill + Good Setup
...but also...
High skill + Good setup > High Skill + Bad Setup
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And the other one

"Medium Skill+a bit" + Bad Setup > Medium skill + Good setup

How many players do you come across, that are perfectly and exactly the same skill level in all areas of play when you play?

Having a bit more skill/knowledge is far more important than a bit more performance and customisation.

HangTime said:
Now, admittedly I have made some assumptions about what may or may not be possible on the different platforms, but it seems to me that the top players would want to play on PC to prevent themselves from being at a disadvantage. Even if the difference isn't there, the fact that people could believe there to potentially be a difference may push people down that route. Or in other words, even if the PC and Console platforms are equal, if top players believe the PC to be superior then you'd expect the majority of top players to play on the PC platform.
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So, people are sheep? :confused: I'm not even sure what you're trying to argue HT.

Of course the PC will be the more popular platform, and have many of the more competitive players.

The kuffufal in this thread is caused by people thinking they're going to roll face on other players just because of their choice of hardware, ignoring any level of skill from either player. Those people are going to get a surprise if they decide to play.
 
Having played competative css / 1.6 for 6/7 years now , the css scene has seemed to slump , especially with the demise of EPS and CGS .
Is there a possibilty that cross platform could make the competative gaming scene larger? , If both ps3 / pc using M+K , surely more intrest in gaming might bring back the possibilities of CGS or somthing similar .......... or is this a pipe dream :)
 
HangTime said:
I'm certainly not suggesting otherwise.

But equally it would be "laughable" if you had two players of equal skill, and one has better 'conditions' (for want of a better word) than the other, yet you didn't consider one of them to have a slight advantage.

If you look at the top players/clans in games like CS/CS:S, what you will find is that the vast majority of them do not just rock up and play with default config, a pair of ****** 2W speakers, a $5 mouse running at 125hz on a 5 year old cloth pad, paired with a 60hz screen and a computer that can't sustain 60fps+. Again, I am not suggesting that this is equivalent to a console setup per se, but what I am suggesting is that the top gamers like to be able to optimise their setup and (traditionally at least) the PC has been a better platform for that sort of thing.

From what I can see, the problem is almost that opinions have swung too far in the opposition direction - now it seems that anyone who suggests that the PC might be a better platform for a particular title is insulting the skillset or knowledge of console gamers, when that isn't always what is happening. Alternatively, anyone who makes a post like mine is saying that skill is irrelevant and that setup is everything.

Let me simplify the equation a bit:

High skill + Bad setup >> Low Skill + Good Setup
...but also...
High skill + Good setup > High Skill + Bad Setup

Now, admittedly I have made some assumptions about what may or may not be possible on the different platforms, but it seems to me that the top players would want to play on PC to prevent themselves from being at a disadvantage. Even if the difference isn't there, the fact that people could believe there to potentially be a difference may push people down that route. Or in other words, even if the PC and Console platforms are equal, if top players believe the PC to be superior then you'd expect the majority of top players to play on the PC platform.
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The only part of a PC "setup" that is superior is the fact the user gets to use a mouse for aiming.

Your examples given earlier, of higher FPS rates, 3rd party voice comm apps, better choice of peripherals, more configuration options all mean jack.

As long as the game runs at an acceptable level, anything beyond that is just extra eye candy. Same with 3rd party voice comm apps and headsets. Console gamers don't give a **** about that because the xbox 360 headset and party chat already works really really well. They don't need extra configuration options because the game runs how its supposed to. Because the developers play tested the game on the exact same machine they did on a closed platform, so they don't need to allow the user options to change stuff around, because they have already honed the game in play testing to run the best it can on their console.

Thats the benefits of a closed platform like a console.

A medium skilled PC gamer is possibly going to be a bit faster than a medium skilled console gamer to aim. But what about all the very skilled console players vs the medium to poor skilled PC players ?? and vice versa ??

Not everybody is the same skill level. There are people on 0 - 9 on the PC, how are they going to fare up against a very skilled console player ? are they going to trash them every time purely by having a mouse. Hardly.
 
MrLOL said:
The only part of a PC "setup" that is superior is the fact the user gets to use a mouse for aiming.

Your examples given earlier, of higher FPS rates, 3rd party voice comm apps, better choice of peripherals, more configuration options all mean jack.

As long as the game runs at an acceptable level, anything beyond that is just extra eye candy. Same with 3rd party voice comm apps and headsets. Console gamers don't give a **** about that because the xbox 360 headset and party chat already works really really well. They don't need extra configuration options because the game runs how its supposed to. Because the developers play tested the game on the exact same machine they did on a closed platform, so they don't need to allow the user options to change stuff around, because they have already honed the game in play testing to run the best it can on their console.

Thats the benefits of a closed platform like a console.

A medium skilled PC gamer is possibly going to be a bit faster than a medium skilled console gamer to aim. But what about all the very skilled console players vs the medium to poor skilled PC players ?? and vice versa ??

Not everybody is the same skill level. There are people on 0 - 9 on the PC, how are they going to fare up against a very skilled console player ? are they going to trash them every time purely by having a mouse. Hardly.
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I agree with you for the most part but I think you're underestimating the advantage the mouse gives. Obviously a 7 year old kid with a mouse will probably struggle against an average console gamer with a pad but that isn't a fair comparison. An average PC gamer with a mouse will wipe the floor with an average console gamer with a pad - the mouse really is that much better in terms of reaction time and accuracy. Obviously, if *on average* this is going to be the case, the vast majority of PC gamers with mice will beat the vast majority of console gamers with pads. This quickly starts to look like everybody's wild assertions about PC gamers wiping the floor with console gamers are actually not that crazy.
 
We could always put this to the test with a PC FPS played with a mouse player vs a pad player :p I'd be happy to do the mouse side of things - medium to high skill I guess.
 
the biggest hinderance to the console player will be the speed with which bullets kill in CS.

I'm rusty since my playing days as a teenager when CS 1.6 was around, and I've been joining in on the OcUK CS server and found myself shot by people i knew where there, before i had even reacted.

One well placed burst to the head with an AK and your dead in 2 bullets.

Depends if CS:Global Offensive uses the same damage model, or allows more damage to be done before giving the kill, COD style.
 
FrenchTart said:
We could always put this to the test with a PC FPS played with a mouse player vs a pad player :p I'd be happy to do the mouse side of things - medium to high skill I guess.
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Kind of irrelevant if the cross-platform console users can use a keyboard and mouse though. :confused:

I'd still be amazed if this is released without some kind of options to lock servers to K+M or pad only though.
 
MrLOL said:
the biggest hinderance to the console player will be the speed with which bullets kill in CS.

I'm rusty since my playing days as a teenager when CS 1.6 was around, and I've been joining in on the OcUK CS server and found myself shot by people i knew where there, before i had even reacted.

One well placed burst to the head with an AK and your dead in 2 bullets.

Depends if CS:Global Offensive uses the same damage model, or allows more damage to be done before giving the kill, COD style.
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I'm not a CS/CSS player myself as I never really got into it. Some quake derivative or even BFBC2 is more my style.

orderoftheflame said:
Kind of irrelevant if the cross-platform console users can use a keyboard and mouse though. :confused:

I'd still be amazed if this is released without some kind of options to lock servers to K+M or pad only though.
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Yeah, you'd expect some kind of pad-only servers or similar. In the past though, attempts at that have failed horribly (Quake on the DC for example).

Regarding mouse vs pad comment, it's not particularly irrelevant to the point I was making in reply to MrLOL, in which he states
A medium skilled PC gamer is possibly going to be a bit faster than a medium skilled console gamer to aim. But what about all the very skilled console players vs the medium to poor skilled PC players ?? and vice versa ??
Click to expand...
 
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FrenchTart said:
Regarding mouse vs pad comment, it's not particularly irrelevant to the point I was making in reply to MrLOL, in which he states
A medium skilled PC gamer is possibly going to be a bit faster than a medium skilled console gamer to aim. But what about all the very skilled console players vs the medium to poor skilled PC players ?? and vice versa ??"
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My bad, misread. :o didn't realise that was specific to the other post.

I presumed console player Vs PC player would be using equal peripherals.

In terms of M+K player Vs Pad player (could be a consoler on the keyboard and PC player on the pad after all ;)), I think it wouldn't be much competition in terms of a straight fight, the mouse user should win. Take map awareness and tactics (flanking, reloading at the right time etc) into concideration and I'd call it the other way.
 
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orderoftheflame said:
My bad, misread. :o

I presumed console player Vs PC player would be using equal peripherals.

In terms of M+K player Vs Pad player (could be a consoler on the keyboard and PC player on the pad after all ;)), I think it wouldn't be much competition in terms of a straight fight, the mouse user should win. Take map awareness and tactics (flanking, reloading at the right time etc) into concideration and I'd call it the other way.
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Agreed :)

However, please edit your quote so it doesn't look like I'm the one saying that :p
 
Not to sound picky but it still looks a bit weird. All of the stuff in that quote is from the other poster, not me :p

I'll edit my post so it's more clear too.
 
Can't watch the vid at work but i've been a console gamer since my Amiga gave way back in the early 90s and i replaced it with a SNES.

But to allow cross-platform gaming with different peripherals would be a bit pointless. So as suggested above, they should lock rooms to pads vs pads and M+K vs M+K.
Personally, i prefer to use a pad as it's what i've always used. But i do know that if i played myself, 1 using pad, 1 using mouse then the mouse would win. However, i disagree with everyone saying playing FPS with a pad is terrible.
I personally feel it works perfectly fine. There are NO issues with it at all.

But of course there is a difference between the 2 different peripherals and this will never change.


Mind you, i say all this and have just spent £650 on a PC so this will be the first time i can play up to date games on highest settings, ever. I may end up moving more towards PC, time will tell.
I'm getting a bit sick of having different devices though. I have 1 laptop, 1 PC, 2 PS3s, 1 Xbox 360 and 1 PSP, and a VITA on order. I need to Sell some stuff off i think!! Bit of a waste.
 
orderoftheflame said:
For the record I know people that will quite happily cream everyone else with a crap PC, in competition. Not everybody is a sponsored top player/clan... Why treat everyone as if they are?
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I'm not! All I said was that I believe the majority of top players will use the PC platform, and I stand by that.

How many players do you come across, that are perfectly and exactly the same skill level in all areas of play when you play?
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None, because you could always adjust the granularity to a fine enough level to spot a difference between players (if you had enough time and a suitable mechanism for determining "skill levels in all areas of play"). But in a game with hundreds of thousands of players (or more) you are bound to get players who are close enough in skill level that the difference between a good setup and a bad setup can make the difference. Let me turn your argument on its head, do you think if you had a lineup of 1000 experienced players (and enough time to make an assessment on them) you could accurately put them in order of skill?

So, people are sheep? :confused: I'm not even sure what you're trying to argue HT.
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I'm trying to argue that the majority of top players will be on PC, and the 'sheep' effect is just one factor, call it a self-fulfilling prophecy, brand power or whatever.

The kuffufal in this thread is caused by people thinking they're going to roll face on other players just because of their choice of hardware, ignoring any level of skill from either player. Those people are going to get a surprise if they decide to play.
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MrLOL said:
Not everybody is the same skill level. There are people on 0 - 9 on the PC, how are they going to fare up against a very skilled console player ? are they going to trash them every time purely by having a mouse. Hardly.
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Again, just to reiterate for the third time, I'm not suggesting that all PC players will beat all console players. This is the thing that really annoys me, that anyone promoting the merits of the PC gets tarred with the same brush as being totally dismissive of console gamers. The "OMG LOLZ CONSOLERS R GONNA GET PWNED!!!! I could go 50-0 with nosound and 100 ping haahah" debates of years gone by have caused too much of a backlash. I am NOT saying that a top console player won't be able to rank in the 1% of all players. But I'm saying that when you whittle it down to the very best across the whole spectrum of hundreds of thousands of players, the ones seeking every edge they can get, most of the very best will come from the PC platform.
 
I remember Microsoft were going to do a feature of mediocre skilled PC gamers and pro Xbox360 gamers and the mediocre skilled outskilled the xbox360 gamers.

Source

It will be funny as hell if CS:GO will be PS3(using controller)vPC (k+m).
 
HangTime said:
I'm not! All I said was that I believe the majority of top players will use the PC platform, and I stand by that.
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And I completely agree with that. :) I'm certain they will.

My posts are generally directed at the people that are reacting in the ridiculous "AMG! LOL" (most of which have failed to read the thread and/or links and facts) fashion as you point out. I hope you don't think my posts have sounded like I'm singling you out as one, as that's been far from my intention.

I've still yet to see anything that points to the PS3 being a "bad setup" though. I think that for the 95%+ of players that make up the "utterly terrible" to "reasonably good" skill ranges will be unaffected by choice of hardware, and that the PS3 will be a perfectly usable choice for the money it costs, and serve no disadvantage to any players that end up using it in those skill ranges. :) I'm also sure the PC will be the preferred platform by many (including me!).

I'm sure people will disagree with that for their own reasons. But if everyone agreed with my point of view I'd find these forums a very boring place to visit. :p
 
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