City's influence over Conservatives laid bare by research into donations

[Glaucus]

It's the worst, but unions are all pretty bad, there might be a. Few which are good. But generally they have lost their way and become massive entities for the glorification of the people who run them, rather than what they should be about.

As for pay rises. I disagree the union is a good thing. All it means is union has standardised pay, so a good work gets paid the same as some one who doesn't even come into work. There's no negotiating your pay, or personal payrises/bonuses. It's all standardised. Mix that with stupid amounts of sick pay and the unions love for keeping pee takers in their job and you don't have a. Good or productive work environment.

 

[scoobyrichuk]

It's the worst, but unions are all pretty bad, there might be a. Few which are good. But generally they have lost their way and become massive entities for the glorification of the people who run them, rather than what they should be about.

As for pay rises. I disagree the union is a good thing. All it means is union has standardised pay, so a good work gets paid the same as some one who doesn't even come into work. There's no negotiating your pay, or personal payrises/bonuses. It's all standardised. Mix that with stupid amounts of sick pay and the unions love for keeping pee takers in their job and you don't have a. Good or productive work environment.

In my experience being a member of a union is an excellent thing, I am a member of the CWU and work for a certain large British Telecommunications company who like to bully their staff and inflict numerous changes to our contracts without any extra benefits to the employees. Thankfully the union organised a strike ballot and magically our pay offer was raised from 2% to 9.6% over 18 months. Without the union we'd have had to take the 2% offer or nothing. I couldn't care less if other companies are not offering rises as my employer makes huge profits year after year (mainly) due to the hard work of people like me at the bottom of the company. Also the union is always there to defend us when the vicious managment try to put us through disciplinary procedures often just for trying to do our jobs correctly and to a high quality standard (but not in the most 'efficient' way the managment want us to.) I'm sure it differs amongst different unions but I can confidently say that being a member of the CWU is well worth £13 a month.

 

[PMKeates]

Exactly the point I was making.

Yes, but they are a product of all competitive measures. Increased taxation reduces competitiveness and increased labour controls reduces competitiveness. Just because it's not 'in context' doesn't change the meaning.

 

[Dolph]

Last I read it was still being decided where the money will go (stay domestic, directly to the EU or to an EU bailout fund). Has this changed?

The Euro countries want it to go to bailing out the Euro (not the EU).

Is this really a good enough argument considering 7 of the G8 (or 16 of the G20) have implemented a FTT which do not share the Swedish experience? Incidentally the failings of which are being addressed as part of the EU-wide FTT.

Are you trying to conflate random financial transaction taxes (such as our stamp duty reserve tax), with the Robin Hood/Tobin Tax idea on a specific type of easily international financial transactions, of which the swedish example is the only actual attempt of the type proposed.

Is that really the best argument you can make, one based on lies and deceit?

 

[Castiel]

I think the ratio would be surprising! Maybe it's my exposure to a more youthful section of society skewing it, but I would say most of the people I know that contribute to Unions do so only because they were told they should, and generally oppose most of the action their Unions have taken on their behalf. I have a particular friend in mind who considers himself a Conservative yet is a fully paid up member of one of the Labour party's top donors. It's a bizarre situation but I think one that's becoming increasingly common.

I used to be a member of the RMT, I vote conservative, I opted out of the political fund. Easy no pressure was enacted on me to do anything I didn't want to and I am free to vote on any ballot in any way I choose.

You can be a member of a Union and support the Conservatives, what an odd thing to think you can't....

 

[PMKeates]

You can be a member of a Union and support the Conservatives, what an odd thing to think you can't....

I said it was odd to be a "fully paid up member" (i.e. including political fund) and support the Conservatives, which it is. I'm not sure why you read differently.

 

[Glaucus]

And how many actually know money goes towards labour. I would hazard a guess a large selection, especially younger people.

 

[Castiel]

Why?
It's not with being out the union, if you are not in the union you are seen as a week target.

More fool them for not opting out of the political funds or making their own choices regarding their membership status. You can be in a Union without supporting their politics.

Unions are democratic and you are balloted on anything that constitutes a change to the conditions of membership, which includes the affiliation to the Labour Party, which incidentally a lot of Unions are not any longer anyway.

 

[Glaucus]

Huh, what did that have anything to do with opting in/out.

 

[Castiel]

I said it was odd to be a "fully paid up member" (i.e. including political fund) and support the Conservatives, which it is. I'm not sure why you read differently.

Then they can opt out, they are not coerced to fund their Unions political funds.

You are still a fully paid up member, you simply do not pay the small proportion that relates to the political fund. When I was a member mine was donated to the Orphans Fund of the RMT instead. It worked out about a couple of pounds a year.

Many Unions are no longer affiliated with the Labour Party anyway.

 

[Castiel]

Huh, what did that have anything to do with opting in/out.

I suggest you read the post I made that you quoted.

I said more fool them for doing something they do not want to do, you asked why. I explained.

It's not difficult to opt out or vote against in ballots within a Union, and you do not have to join a Union to begin with. This isn't America or the 1960's, Closed Shops are illegal and so it coercing and bullying.

I have never come across it and I deal with some of the most militant Unions in the country as well as being an ex member of one.

 

[Castiel]

And how many actually know money goes towards labour. I would hazard a guess a large selection, especially younger people.

Branch secretaries are required to inform members at a Branch or AGM the amount of money that Branch donated, the option to opt out is clearly stated in the Union Applications and so if you do not know then you obviously don't actually care that much.


Anyway the stupidity or laziness of people is partly the reason I support the funded of political parties by public funding or capped donations which are made in the public domain.

It would stop this senseless bickering over who is funding who and who is controlling who and the people who think you cannot be a Unionist and a Conservative at the same time would have no reason to hold such irrational opinions.

 

[Glaucus]

I suggest you read the post I made that you quoted.

.

It was hardly a post purly about opting out of the political funds. It's a post about many bad aspects of unions, but even with all those bad sides. It is still often better to still join up.

 

[Dolph]

What unions do on paper, and what happens in workplaces as a reality can often be very different. Especially if the pressure comes from other members and is just ignored/tolerated/covered up rather than coming directly from the union structure...

 

[Castiel]

It was hardly a post purly about opting out of the political funds. It's a post about many bad aspects of unions, but even with all those bad sides. It is still often better to still join up.

I didn't say it wasn't. I think you misunderstood my point AcidHell.

I support Unions, I voted Conservative. I was referring to the claims that people are forced to support Labour if they want to be Unionists. That is simply untrue as is coercion to join a Union.

 

[Castiel]

What unions do on paper, and what happens in workplaces as a reality can often be very different. Especially if the pressure comes from other members and is just ignored/tolerated/covered up rather than coming directly from the union structure...

How do you actually force someone to join a Union exactly?

It is a nonsense to think that there is widespread bullying in the workplace toward non union members or that belonging to a Union is inherently a bad thing either.

In many cases the benefits of being in a Union as regards disciplinary, negotiation, and legal support give greater value to the individual than a Unions support for a political party, one which you can opt out of anyway.

 

[Dolph]

Doublepost

 

[Dolph]

How do you actually force someone to join a Union exactly?

It is a nonsense to think that there is widespread bullying in the workplace toward non union members or that belonging to a Union is inherently a bad thing either.

Your mileage may vary, but it is also nonsense to dismiss the idea entirely.

In many cases the benefits of being in a Union as regards disciplinary, negotiation, and legal support give greater value to the individual than a Unions support for a political party, one which you can opt out of anyway.

Of course, although it does depend on the union in question, how they interact with the company involved and so on.

Just for the record, I am not against unions, I'm against militant unions, exploiting the workers to push a leftist/socialist agenda.

 

[Deleted member 66701]

How do you actually force someone to join a Union exactly?

I'd like to know too - it'd make my life easier!

Although it's quite easy in reality - I just dangle pay rises in front of their noses.

Your mileage may vary, but it is also nonsense to dismiss the idea entirely.

Are you aware Dolph that a Union rep can be taken to an employment tribunal for mistreatment of union or non-union members?

Any bullying invokes most companies disciplinary procedure - often resulting in instant dismissal - union member or not. I would suggest any endemic bullying within a company is due to an insufficiently robust disciplinary procedure, rather than anything to do with a union in that workplace and strong unions often reduce the amount of bullying experienced in a workplace.

 

[Castiel]

I'd like to know too - it'd make my life easier!

Although it's quite easy in reality - I just dangle pay rises in front of their noses.

Quite. People belong to Unions because it is to their benefit, not because they are coerced.

The RMT just negotiated a 6.1% two year deal for one of our subsidiaries. I bet they are all complaining of coercion and bullying also!