Striking and the courts

Don't confuse collective bargaining with collective blackmail in the form of strike action. Collective bargaining works well when done at appropriate levels, however when the structure is too large (for example, every nurse in the whole of the UK), what you tend to end up with is a system that rewards poor performance and fails to recognise good performance, because there is no possibility of making amendments in order to attract certain types of staff and so on, especially when the negotiations are dominated by fully paid full time union reps who have absolutely no connection to the work involved.

Systems that reward poor performance are the bailiwick of the management. The NHS structure isn't dictated by the Unions, it is dictated by the NHS executive management.

As for representative voting in ballots, as long as all members are balloted then the choice to vote remains the individuals, apathy among the voting group doesn't imply support ot opposition to a particular ballot, it merely implies they do not care enough one way or the other. So unless you enforce compulsory voting, the decision must stand on the result of those who voted.

If the majority feel strongly enough, they can vote against any action, and as Meridian has said and you have chosen to ignore if 'majority of voters' is a requirement for union ballots then you should be supporting such requirements across all democratic elections such as General Elections.

Unless you are simply anti-union, which given some of your posts certainly seems the case.
 
Systems that reward poor performance are the bailiwick of the management. The NHS structure isn't dictated by the Unions, it is dictated by the NHS executive management.

It is dictated by what both sides can agree on, unless the employer is willing to invoke section 188 of the TULR act 1992

As for representative voting in ballots, as long as all members are balloted then the choice to vote remains the individuals, apathy among the voting group doesn't imply support ot opposition to a particular ballot, it merely implies they do not care enough one way or the other. So unless you enforce compulsory voting, the decision must stand on the result of those who voted.

How about a compromise, make the liability exemption dependent on getting sufficient support for a majority of the workforce?

If the majority feel strongly enough, they can vote against any action, and as Meridian has said and you have chosen to ignore if 'majority of voters' is a requirement for union ballots then you should be supporting such requirements across all democratic elections such as General Elections.

Unless you are simply anti-union, which given some of your posts certainly seems the case.

I'm anti bad unions, namely those who set out to disrupt things or push political agendas (so unions like the PCS, CWU, NUT, RMT, FBU) rather than unions in general.

In an ideal world, we would not need to amend the legislation to prevent bad behaviour by a small group of unions, but then, in an ideal world, we wouldn't need employment legislation either.

I'll also point out that I said specifically that I'd prefer other solutions to the vote changes...
 
Because rules are always open to interpretation? Whereas managers tend to go for the widest possible interpretation of a given rule, in the case of work to rule, they will go for the narrowest interpretation possible. No rules need to be currently being broken for a work to rule to be effective, unless you've got very strictly written rules in the first place, which doesn't happen because it's impractical.

Why do you have such a chip on your shoulder about 'managers'?

With broad interpretation of rules comes the responsibity to have staff and procedures that are also broad in application. Competent flexible management can make any work to rule largely ineffective, it is inflexible and unimaginative management techniques that make non-strike actions effective, not the action itself. Building specified flexibility into contractual and procedural practices along with overlapping contractual responsibility within the workforce means that work to rule simply has no way of legally limiting the operations of services to any degree. It may create some inconvenience and added pressure on the local management structure, but a good, competent and flexible local management structure should be able to act accordingly and adapt without too much effort.
 
Indeed. Don't want to work for the package you signed up to work for? Well **** off then, there are three million odd people out there who will.

So what happens when they change the conditions you work under? I suppose that's fine because you have a job and should be grateful, eh? :rolleyes:
 
It is dictated by what both sides can agree on, unless the employer is willing to invoke section 188 of the TULR act 1992

90 day notices are reasonably commonplace anyway. The innate structure of any company is not dictated by unions, they may oppose specific changes on the behalf of their members, but in reality for every rule protecting an employee, there are two rules allowing management to circumvent them.

Problems arise when management doesn't effectively include or consult their workforces, most issues arise from a lack of communication and explanation of the objectives to any given infrastructure or policy change.

I am aware that some unions are more likely to oppose than others, but restricting the rights of all to combat the few is a dangerous road to travel.

How about a compromise, make the liability exemption dependent on getting sufficient support for a majority of the workforce?

You are already aware that the compromise you suggest has already been agreed within the company I work for.
What is needed in workforces with lower unionisation is protections for those who do not strike and some kind of controls for pickets (flying pickets already being outlawed).



I'm anti bad unions, namely those who set out to disrupt things or push political agendas (so unions like the PCS, CWU, NUT, RMT, FBU) rather than unions in general.

Even within those unions, it is not always the case that they are unreasonable or political.

As I said, we have very good relations with the RMT on the whole, individuals aside.
 
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Because rules are always open to interpretation? Whereas managers tend to go for the widest possible interpretation of a given rule, in the case of work to rule, they will go for the narrowest interpretation possible. No rules need to be currently being broken for a work to rule to be effective, unless you've got very strictly written rules in the first place, which doesn't happen because it's impractical.

Why do you have such a chip on your shoulder about 'managers'?



Er - who wrote those rules? Who is in charge of their implementation? If they are being implemented differently to how they were intended, whose job is it to tighten the interpretation up? Here's a clue: the answer to all those questions is the same, and it's not the unions.


And I have a chip on my shoulder about managers in the same way as you mindlessly support them. To quote Scott Adams: I'm not against managers, I'm against bad managers. And whenever you see bad industrial relationships, I'll show you bad managers. You can't make a happy workforce militant, and you can't make an happy workforce unhappy, by anything unions might say in isolation. You can't make up grievances that don't exist and expect the workforce to use that to lead to industrial action. In order for workers to go down that route, the quality of management will generally be pretty poor and the grievances be genuine. Good old-fashioned us-versus-them, bosses handing out redundancy notices and then raking bonuses - that sort of thing. Playing favourites and making up jobs for the blue-eyed boys. Making sure cuts hit the workers, not themselves. Making up more support jobs whilst cutting front-line staff. Taking the credit for other's success and blaming others for their own failures. You get the picture.

Bye and large both sides want the same thing: a successful company. If there's a conflict then someone started it, and my money is on the group with most of the power. Because there are plenty of unionised large companies who have excellent industrial relationships, so it's neither scale nor unions causing the problem.


M
 
I think tube drivers on the London undground are all ******'s.

£45k a year and they're still not happy. Give me a break you lazy greedy *****'s. Not exactly a challenging or talent demanding job is it.

I'm all for a an outright ban on striking altogether.
 
I think tube drivers on the London undground are all ******'s.

£45k a year and they're still not happy. Give me a break you lazy greedy *****'s. Not exactly a challenging or talent demanding job is it.

I'm all for a an outright ban on striking altogether.

I assume that you have been a train driver, going by your implied level of authority.:rolleyes:
 
No I haven't, but it doesn't take a genius to work out what the job entails.

It's pretty much all in the job title.

And as far as I'm concerned, £45k a year is too much for such a job. Lower their salaries, put a stop to the strikes, let them have double/triple bubble for working public holidays/new years etc and lower my tube fare please.
 
Er - who wrote those rules? Who is in charge of their implementation? If they are being implemented differently to how they were intended, whose job is it to tighten the interpretation up? Here's a clue: the answer to all those questions is the same, and it's not the unions.


And I have a chip on my shoulder about managers in the same way as you mindlessly support them. To quote Scott Adams: I'm not against managers, I'm against bad managers. And whenever you see bad industrial relationships, I'll show you bad managers. You can't make a happy workforce militant, and you can't make an happy workforce unhappy, by anything unions might say in isolation. You can't make up grievances that don't exist and expect the workforce to use that to lead to industrial action. In order for workers to go down that route, the quality of management will generally be pretty poor and the grievances be genuine. Good old-fashioned us-versus-them, bosses handing out redundancy notices and then raking bonuses - that sort of thing. Playing favourites and making up jobs for the blue-eyed boys. Making sure cuts hit the workers, not themselves. Making up more support jobs whilst cutting front-line staff. Taking the credit for other's success and blaming others for their own failures. You get the picture.

Bye and large both sides want the same thing: a successful company. If there's a conflict then someone started it, and my money is on the group with most of the power. Because there are plenty of unionised large companies who have excellent industrial relationships, so it's neither scale nor unions causing the problem.


M

The problem always boils down to workers wanting more, for less.
Which is fine when its easy to do ie making large profits etc. When that stops the managers suddenly become "bad managers" because they cant give what the workers want.

Tip, its not the workers/trade unions who decide who is a good manager, its the people who pay said managers wages.

Businesses offer a salary and package for a job, when accepting that job you decide if thats good enough for you. What level of profits the company makes is really of no concern to said worker, they are paid to do a job.
If your unhappy about said wages go work somewhere else, how is that hard to understand? Thats the bit that gets my goat about unions, if your unhappy with the working conditions **** off and work somewhere else. If the company cannot accept that they will offer you more. If the company is genuinely paying so badly it will struggle to recruit and have to up the wages/benefits.

Over history when you look at what the unions did they did great for their initial period, they really benefitted workers and dragged the country forwards. But then they basically became greedy, over a long period they slowly destroyed our global competitiveness (excessinve wage demands and strikes etc) and by their own actions destroyed the jobs of the people they sought to protect.

I personally do not see the need for unions in the modern world, EU directives, even our own goverment will not let standards fall below certain levels. They always seem to forget its about global competitiveness in the world we live in.

The fact he quotes redundancy then says about bonuses, wow, welcome to the real world. Not making those redundancies may have caused the whole company to go under.
 
It's pretty much all in the job title.

What? Train Operator?

Do you know how to operate a tube train? Do you have intimate knowledge of the onboard train systems to fault find and diagnose a problem whilst you have hundreds of passengers sitting behind you. Do you know what to do when you have a person under a train, when you have no forward motion, no door closed indication, loss of main line air, shunting, coupling, detrainments etc etc. Not to mention remembering speed limits on certain parts of the line, inclines, declines, signal locations, signal routes, shunt moves. I could go on.

Tube trains are immensely complicated machines to operate, and train operators have to remember a heck of a lot of information day in, day out, when under stress, and even when monotonously going from station to station when concentration can lapse.

People give T/ops, and LU staff in general, such a hard time, when in fact they have no clue how the system runs, what it takes to run, and what the staff have to go through day to day.
 
No I haven't, but it doesn't take a genius to work out what the job entails.

It's pretty much all in the job title.

And as far as I'm concerned, £45k a year is too much for such a job. Lower their salaries, put a stop to the strikes, let them have double/triple bubble for working public holidays/new years etc and lower my tube fare please.

So you know nothing of the job, the responsibilities or the conditions under which the work is taken out, yet you have the audacity to judge what a fair wage for such work is.



'lower my fare please' is your attitude, such a selfish attitude is pretty ironic frankly, especially as this dispute is about safety of both the workforce and the public. Also if you think Lower fares would be the result of a lowering of safety procedures and the conditions of train drivers you are a very misinformed and naive young man.
 
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No I haven't, but it doesn't take a genius to work out what the job entails.

It's pretty much all in the job title.

And as far as I'm concerned, £45k a year is too much for such a job. Lower their salaries, put a stop to the strikes, let them have double/triple bubble for working public holidays/new years etc and lower my tube fare please.

I'm not sure I'd be especially keen to be a tube driver even for £45k a year, if as being a passenger the conditions are noisy/hot/smelly then I can't imagine it's that much more fun as a driver - you've got to concentrate on what is probably a fairly monotonous task in terms of driving the train. There seems to be a multitude of systems to be aware of so while you're physically stuck to a track it doesn't look all that easy from where I'm sitting and then there's always the risk that someone decides to use your train as the favoured form of suicide - I suspect that takes a bit of work to get over. Not to mention you're in charge of the lives of thousands of people every day you're working.

I'm not suggesting it's the most difficult job in the World either but all things considered I can understand why there may be a certain premium paid for it.
 
The problem always boils down to workers wanting more, for less.

Of course, at inflation pay increases each year would be a perfectly acceptable thing to expect, as you say, you agree to do a job for a specific level of relative award, it should only be fair that the award remains relative to living costs. The same with regards ti increased productivity, increased profitability, changes in ancillary terms and conditions, all should require automatic rises in the level of awards payable, likewise the contrary is also fair.

The truth is however that inflationary pay increases rarely happen without union negotiation in many occupations (generally the lowest skilled and paid) and without collective bargaining these workforces would be receiving ever decreasing remuneration for the same or more productivity.

The truth is rarely as clear cut or simple as you make out, and as for legislation...who do you think makes sure such legislation is enforced by unscrupulous and profit concerned managements. I can't even number the amount if issues brought to our attention by unions that are contrary to legislation and have either escaped the local managements notice or been driven by poor managers and supervisory staff more intent on their productivity bonuses than following company policy.

Unions have their place, militancy is the issue here, not unions.
 
If they can do the job, I could do the job. Of course there are going to be some technical complexities to it, but they aren't complexities that many a man couldn't take on board and learn as well. So of course I don't know all the technical complexities of the job, but that's part and parcel of the training and could be said for pretty much every job.

And what I consider to be a fair salary taking on board their rights at the same time, i.e. to strike, I consider, as a matter of my opinion, that the salary doesn't really fit the situation and how good they really seem to have it.

And as for my selfishness wishing for lower rail/tube fares, I think that selfishness is only as bad as the tube drivers when it comes to going on strike and disrupting thousands of peoples commute to work on each of those days. And it's not just workers, its those who go to school, need to get to hospital for vital appointments to do with their health and all those students which are paying thousands of pounds a year to attend courses in the city. Which in turn doesn't just affect the people who work, but their clients and colleagues as well. All because they're angry that they're either not getting the salary rise they demand or because one or two or their colleagues has been given the boot. I think that is more selfish than my desire to have lower tube fares.

And lower tube fares doesn't mean jeopardising safety etc, it means cutting salaries for jobs which I personally think are overpaid.
 
And as for my selfishness wishing for lower rail/tube fares, I think that selfishness is only as bad as the tube drivers when it comes to going on strike and disrupting thousands of peoples commute to work on each of those days. And it's not just workers, its those who go to school, need to get to hospital for vital appointments to do with their health and all those students which are paying thousands of pounds a year to attend courses in the city. Which in turn doesn't just affect the people who work, but their clients and colleagues as well. All because they're angry that they're either not getting the salary rise they demand or because one or two or their colleagues has been given the boot. I think that is more selfish than my desire to have lower tube fares

And lower tube fares doesn't mean jeopardising safety etc, it means cutting salaries for jobs which I personally think are overpaid.

No strike is not without ample warning, so with a modicum of forethought it isn't too much of an issue making appointments or getting to work. I have never had an issue, it's just a minor inconvenience nothing more.

As for cutting salaries, cutting the 5500 managers on over £50k within the TFL and the £2m in executive bonuses, the £22m in management consultancy fees and the £11m paid out in remuneration to the 13 chiefs of the TFL would be a start before cutting the salaries of front line service employees.

All this has been covered however in another thread, I see no point, given the way the thread has gone from discussing Unions and Stikes generally to a rehash of the Tube Drivers remuneration to keep repeating the same counters to the same nonsense.

Is it necessary to simply repeat the same arguments in two threads....

http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showthread.php?t=18325122
 
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I'm anti bad unions, namely those who set out to disrupt things...
To be fair - when situations dictate it, what other options are available than to 'disrupt things'?

The last thing that many unions want is to call for strike action, but when all other negotiations have broken down, what else is left - just drop trou & bend over?
 
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Of course, at inflation pay increases each year would be a perfectly acceptable thing to expect, as you say, you agree to do a job for a specific level of relative award, it should only be fair that the award remains relative to living costs. The same with regards ti increased productivity, increased profitability, changes in ancillary terms and conditions, all should require automatic rises in the level of awards payable, likewise the contrary is also fair.

The truth is however that inflationary pay increases rarely happen without union negotiation in many occupations (generally the lowest skilled and paid) and without collective bargaining these workforces would be receiving ever decreasing remuneration for the same or more productivity.

The truth is rarely as clear cut or simple as you make out, and as for legislation...who do you think makes sure such legislation is enforced by unscrupulous and profit concerned managements. I can't even number the amount if issues brought to our attention by unions that are contrary to legislation and have either escaped the local managements notice or been driven by poor managers and supervisory staff more intent on their productivity bonuses than following company policy.

Unions have their place, militancy is the issue here, not unions.

Interesting view that the unions ensure pay rises that wouldnt have happened. Its not been my experience, through a few different industries I haven't seen the unions able to get significantly more pay at any of them. I have seen them secure pay rises when they wouldn't have been given, I have seen them manage to negotiate a lower rise than the company would have given if they had pushed hard enough though ;) Ie company budgetted 4%, initially offered 2% knowing that no matter what they offered unions would reject, or ballot to reject to be 100% correct. Final agreed rate was 3.5%, without the unions the company would have given 4%.

Re managers and supervisory level staff not following legislation etc, surely the senior managers should be the ones ensuring this is applied not the unions. Thats how it works in non unionised places of work, having to have legislation advised by the unions means either the lower managers are failing or the senior ones are failing. The fact the unions are advising is a failure of one of those levels not a benefit of having unionised working.

Personally I dont think unions should be involved in pay in modern society, ensuring that union members are treated fairly and ok if they have weak management ensuring that rules are followed is great, but making out that people would still be paid 5p an hour to do jobs just because the union aren't there to negotiate wages isn't correct, over time assuming basic protection (which comes from elsewhere not unions) all jobs will seek out a market rate balancing supply and demand. All unions seek to do is these circumstances is to beat the system and get paid more than the companies believe they would pay.

Certainly having worked in unionised and non unionised parts of our economy I see no significant difference in how companies go about paying their workforce so I am far from convinced that unions currently succeed in anything other than short term in benefitting their members financially.
However there is certainly enough evidence of where historically they used to manage this they destroyed our global competitiveness.
 
To be fair - when situations dictate it, what other options are available than to 'disrupt things'?

The last thing that many unions want is to call for strike action, but when all other negotiations have broken down, what else is left - just drop trou & bend over?

Binding pendulum arbitration to determine which party has the more reasonable position would be my preference.

That way, if the employer is being unreasonable, the union gets what they wanted, if the union is being unreasonable, the employer does.
 
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