Striking and the courts

robskinner said:
... Certainly having worked in unionised and non unionised parts of our economy I see no significant difference in how companies go about paying their workforce so I am far from convinced that unions currently succeed in anything other than short term in benefitting their members financially.
However there is certainly enough evidence of where historically they used to manage this they destroyed our global competitiveness.
Click to expand...
Does Germany have:
  • lower wages
  • better industrial relations legislation
  • better management
  • greater stakeholder involvement
or​
All bar the first? ;)
 
robskinner said:
Interesting view that the unions ensure pay rises that wouldnt have happened. Its not been my experience, through a few different industries I haven't seen the unions able to get significantly more pay at any of them. I have seen them secure pay rises when they wouldn't have been given, I have seen them manage to negotiate a lower rise than the company would have given if they had pushed hard enough though ;) Ie company budgetted 4%, initially offered 2% knowing that no matter what they offered unions would reject, or ballot to reject to be 100% correct. Final agreed rate was 3.5%, without the unions the company would have given 4%.
Click to expand...

So the management offered 2% although they could have afforded 4% and it was only due to collective bargaining that they received 3.5%.

Seems like an improvement that the collective bargaining right s of the workforce gained over what the original offer was.

What industries and a what levels have you been employed. It must be at least at board level to have intimate knowledge of the original intention to offer 4%.

(not that I believe you example to be anything other than illustrative, as any shareholder would be horrified to think that their board was willing to offer over the odds in pay increases without negotiation, either through Unions or direct employee consultation.)

robskinner said:
Re managers and supervisory level staff not following legislation etc, surely the senior managers should be the ones ensuring this is applied not the unions. Thats how it works in non unionised places of work, having to have legislation advised by the unions means either the lower managers are failing or the senior ones are failing. The fact the unions are advising is a failure of one of those levels not a benefit of having unionised working.
Click to expand...

In small compact business models you would be correct, however in my industry it is impractical to supervise the day to day compliance personally and we rely upon both management and the workforce to make sure all legislation is met and adhered to, this is a legal requirement for ALL employees and it is is practical to have union representatives who report upon such adherence at all levels. Legislation plays an important part in our overall ability to function effectively. What you find in non unionised companies within the transport industry is an increased incidence of non compliance and the respective problems that brings, such as the loss of operators licences and answering directly to the Commissioner.

Invoving the Unions and therefore the workforce in operational compliance is a cost effective and inclusive way to foster cooperation and increased vigilance within our compliance structures.

Like I said, it is not as black and white as you make out and unions do have a place in the industry, it is militancy that does not. Their is a significant difference between the two, one which I do not think you are aware of.

robskinner said:
Personally I dont think unions should be involved in pay in modern society, ensuring that union members are treated fairly and ok if they have weak management ensuring that rules are followed is great, but making out that people would still be paid 5p an hour to do jobs just because the union aren't there to negotiate wages isn't correct, over time assuming basic protection (which comes from elsewhere not unions) all jobs will seek out a market rate balancing supply and demand. All unions seek to do is these circumstances is to beat the system and get paid more than the companies believe they would pay.
Click to expand...

In the real world however not all management or indeed companies are fair and even handed in their approach to their workforce. If they were then there would be no need for unions, however the real world is not like that and for many industries the need for unions and the protections they offer to their members is still a necessary and useful part of employment.

Better working relations between management and the workforce, either through unions or employee forums is a good way to do business. Germany is a prime example of good Employer-Union cooperation for the benefit of all and if we can remove poor management practice and remove the needs and causes for union militancy there is no reason why this country cannot benefit as well.
 
Last edited:
Castiel said:
What industries and a what levels have you been employed. It must be at least at board level to have intimate knowledge of the original intention to offer 4%.
Click to expand...

Not that I think it matters, but Industries
Light manufacturing, 1500 employees
Financial Services, 1000+ employees
Tool Hire, services 1000+ employees
Plus a few others smaller

Jobs :
From the bottom up management accountant upto FD

But most people within financial planning loop of those companies would also see at least some of the data.

Oh and yes was illustrative figures. (edit to add this comment)
 
Last edited:
robskinner said:
Not that I think it matters, but Industries
Light manufacturing, 1500 employees
Financial Services, 1000+ employees
Tool Hire, services 1000+ employees
Plus a few others smaller

Jobs :
From the bottom up management accountant upto FD

But most people within financial planning loop of those companies would also see at least some of the data.

Oh and yes was illustrative figures. (edit to add this comment)
Click to expand...


So very small companies in comparison to those we are generally referring. For example my experience is at executive management level (Group UK Operations Director) for a group responsible for over 27000 employees, and my experience of the validity and benefit of Unions is somewhat different to yours.

Like I said, it is not quite as straight forward as you might expect.
 
Meridian said:
Don't seem to have trouble keeping their own salaries going up though?


M
Click to expand...

But what has one persons salary got to do with anyone elses salary?

Unless you are trying to achieve an equal state where all people are paid the same there will always be some who are paid more than others.

Seniority, skills, knowledge, luck, old boy network, sucking up, being a poor performer, being under disciplinary, having a contractual position, etc etc

There are so many reasons for people to not be paid the same. So if one person gets a payrise and someone else hasnt should we all go on strike and refuse to do our jobs?
 
robskinner said:
But what has one persons salary got to do with anyone elses salary?

Unless you are trying to achieve an equal state where all people are paid the same there will always be some who are paid more than others.

Seniority, skills, knowledge, luck, old boy network, sucking up, being a poor performer, being under disciplinary, having a contractual position, etc etc

There are so many reasons for people to not be paid the same. So if one person gets a payrise and someone else hasnt should we all go on strike and refuse to do our jobs?
Click to expand...

It depends on the type of employment and the industry. Equal work for equal pay and all that jazz. As a Financial Director you should be aware of your legislative responsibilities surely...:p
 
Last edited:
Castiel said:
So very small companies in comparison to those we are generally referring. For example my experience is at executive management level (Group UK Operations Director) for a group responsible for over 27000 employees, and my experience of the validity and benefit of Unions is somewhat different to yours.

Like I said, it is not quite as straight forward as you might expect.
Click to expand...

Well the unions involved were large unions despite the "small size" of the companies, since they were generic unions ofr manufacturing and offices rather than specialist ones for a certain field, eg RMT>
Although some were multinationals that employed many times more worldwide I as only quoting based on local employees, not that I see it matters when dealing with large unions.

It seems the transport area seems different to the areas of the economy I have worked in. So I will back off and not try to add comment as the transport area seems to work differently to what I have seen.

Maybe its to do with there being no direct competition available means it works better.

I dont disagree that good employer employee relations are to be aimed for, again there is no need for unions to be able to achieve that, they may help but they certain are not a prerequisite for the relations to exist.
 
Castiel said:
It depends on the type of employment and the industry. Equal work for equal pay and all that jazz. As a Financial Director you should be aware of your legislative responsibilities surely...:p
Click to expand...

But frontline and senior positions are not equal work and so comparing the two is largely irrelevant.
 
Castiel said:
It depends on the type of employment and the industry. Equal work for equal pay and all that jazz. As a Financial Director you should be aware of your legislative responsibilities surely...:p
Click to expand...

Of course but his point which you are choosing to mis quote my response to was based on managers getting a rise/bonus when workers didn't.

Thats got nothing to do with equal pay for equal work, and all that jazz as you put it.

Again I have seen really good workers suffer from unionisation due to this. They would have been paid more due to higher effort etc, but they couldn't be due to unions insisting same pay rates for all doing same jobs (graded even though technically not the same job). Eventually they tend to get rewarded as they get promoted to lead hand/supervisor etc
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom