UK uncut NHS protection protest - Westminster bridge today 1pm.

PermaBanned said:
Not introducing the bill? Employing fewer managers and more floor staff? Listening to Doctors and not Politicians? Bringing back the homes that i can't for the life of me remember the name of where long term or serious patients would go before going home, being in a much better suited environment and not taking up hospital beds, meaning more space and shorter waiting lists?
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Have you read the Bill?

A large part of it is reducing the administration and it's related cost to the NHS by a third.

It also calls for Clinician led commissioning of treatments and services, so actually listening to the doctors.....

It calls for greater inclusion of patients and the establishment of patient forums (healthwatch I think it is called) to enable this.

It also removes much of the political micro management and gives local authorities and the NHS more control over its services.

so you were saying.....

and the homes you are referring to are called sanatoriums and they are not really necessary in a modern health care system.
 
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Castiel said:
I'm not particularly ranty about the NHS, I support some local stuff with connections to the NHS as well as signing off on corporate sponsorship for several programs within the NHS.

I don't recall stating it doesn't function well either, only that it needs to be improved, unless you are suggesting that it is perfect and as efficient and cost effective as possible whilst giving the best level of quality service in the most effective way?

What I actually feel strongly about (although not that strongly) is the ineffective politically motivated demonstrations like the one today. Barely 2000 people turned out and without some effective alternatives to the Health Bill in question simply raising placards saying "Save Our NHS" are pointless.

I ahve yet to hear of anythng even resembling an alternative to the proposals, let alone something worth considering, all everyone is interested in doing is calling the Conservative names....very constructive!
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Well that wasn't really targeted at you. No prizes though ;)

If you want effective political demonstrations then you will be interested to hear that the RCN is discussing industrial action for pretty much the first time - that will be about as crippling as you can get - I remember when it happened in Canada and the government said they would not cave in - they did by lunchtime - they then tried to pass a law to prevent strikeaction - so everyone resigned. Stupid fight for any government to take - by my reckoning that's over half a million women of which at any one time one-hundred thousand will be hormonal. Would you pick a fight with one-hundred thousand hormonal women - I know I wouldn't.

There are plenty of initiatives for sorting out the NHS - in fact it is quite simple - stop treating those that should not be treated and let the people who understand the system get on with doing things rather than moving the goalposts every 4 yrs. The health of the nation is far too important to be left in the hands of those who aim to be re-elected on short-term promises when the solutions are long-term in nature. And managers who would never have a clue what to do if someone had got chickenpox let alone anything else can just **** off when they think that the NHS can directly translate methodology from a Toyota production line for cars into the task of looking after the milieu of patients that passes through the average hospital.

You can't improve the health of a nation without addressing the poverty level - Lalonde Report etc etc - with the Tories doing the utmost to increase the gap between the rich and the poor (not really in it all together are we let's face it) then you can expect the health to decrease. Reducing funding, preventing recruitment, closing beds, at this time is not really going to do any good unless you aim to solve the housing problem. overall NHS and social services cost etc by killing off the poor in which case it's a good strategy.
 
Castiel said:
why the proposals will destroy the NHS?
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For starters:

Do you want GPs to be able to profit from the services they refer for? 5mins slots at the GP with a Keeerrcchhhiiinnnng as you close the door to another successful referral.
Do you want any parliamentary figures to take no accountability for the NHS? Moreover to have it enshrined in law - "sorry Guvnor couldn't do a dicky bird forbidden by law I'm only the Sec for State hands were tied not my fault."
How about recent history where private money has won over staff expertise eg Central Surrey Health losing contracts to Assura.
Do you want this massive unprecedented and unwanted change to be facilitated by yet more highly paid consultants that seem to have done diddly squat for the preceding decades?
Do you want less than 1000 inspectors to check EVERYTHING - not that they do their job properly anyway as everyone knows when they are coming.
Does the massive movement towards private care not worry you when private care is so often very very deficient in this country and also with little expertise outside niche money making areas?

It's quite simple if you need to feed a family with a limited budget you need to use that budget well. What you don't do is to pay outside people to tell you how to do that out of your already limited budget. You don't get Molly Maid into do your cleaning when all they will do is drink the gin and not do anything. You don't go an adopt a baby from every different continent because it's the done thing and you want to appear altruistic. You don't blow the budget on one person. You don't buy Alienware laptops to surf the internet. Etc

Addressing the problems of the NHS is rather stupid without addressing immigration, the gap between the poor and the rich, the size of houses, the affordability of houses, the change of employment, education, lifestyle.

Patient choice is an illusion how can you have choice with all the different things that go wrong with you and that will only increase with time. Gone are the days were we all died from consumption. People are that specialised in things now that for many things there is no other option - a point I often have raised - it is then stated to me that then a fair price should be agree by the very people who then argue in other threads bankers are entitled to massive bonuses because they have a limited skillset and because that is what people will pay. Do you want some medics to start using that philosophy - do you want to sell your house to fund the life of a family member. Because the ever blues of this forum will sanction that for one sector of the economy so it would be rather hypocritical if they did not do it for another soon to be emerging sector. When all the qualified providers for a given thing are in the private sector where are the price constraints and how the hell do the inspectors check for compliance. Where is the contribution from qualified providers towards training. Where is the contribution from qualified providers towards outcomes other than monetary. Where is the contribution from qualified providers towards innovation.

Challenge for your google skills Castiel - as I am sure you are aware significant provision of mental health services in this country comes from private companies. Surf the medical and nursing journals - how many are coming from those private units?

Oh and btw I am retired my job description these days is stay-at-home dad - far better it's a bit like being back in the army except I crawl around on the floor more, get less sleep and get shouted at more - get a better colour palette for the face paint though I'll give it that much.
 
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maustin said:
For starters:

Do you want GPs to be able to profit from the services they refer for? 5mins slots at the GP with a Keeerrcchhhiiinnnng as you close the door to another successful referral.
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Sounds wonderful, some of us might actually get to see someone who knows what they are talking about then, ie a specialist.
 
Xandos said:
The Tory menace to society ;)

To block the bill that they're about to pass to cripple the NHS.

Anyway, best run. Else I'll be late.

As for this forum, I know. It's as blue as the stylesheet. Well, can only try.
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The NHS as it is is crippling the economy, whats better, cuts, and changes, that reduce spending, or the country going bankrupt and the entire NHS basically going under because no country will buy our debt and we can't buy the supplys we need for the NHS to actually work.

But well done, your protest will, give plenty of coppers extra overtime, divert resources, cost money, more money that we don't have. Yay, god damned hippys who just think you can spend an unlimited amount on anything you want with no consequences. Thats great thinking in a perfect world, and an acceptable notion as how you want the world to be, but if you're over, lets say, 7 years old, it just makes you a naive twerp who is helping make things worse rather than better.

NHS right now, is crap, it only works because we spend a literally extortionate amount on it. In terms of the quality of service for the price we pay, its a awful health service.
 
Hatter The Mad said:
If they did that in 1948, there wouldn't have been an NHS.

Do you really think any profession, let alone doctors, is going to be happy to accept anything which increases their accountability?
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People really do fail to see this, every single sector fights change, good or bad, people in general don't like change. Right now GP's are incredibly highly paid for doing very very little and passing the responsibility(and most of their utter failures) on "real" doctors hands.

Gp's simply do not want more responsibility, nor do they want to justify patient target bonuses and crap health care provision when, the only people they will be able to blame when people still complain about it, is them.

Cutting administration staff is the ONLY way to move forwards in the NHS, Labour has been hiding unemployment figures by loading up thousands and thousands of completely unnecessary jobs in administration roles.

The NHS can cut paperwork in half, lose 10k's of staff in the back rooms, drop spending dramatically and still INCREASE spending on frontline staff, doctors, training, equipments and beds while improving service.

AS with any change, the goal would be perfect ratio of improving every service and cutting every single job thats wasted, in reality, thats impossible, anyone who says it is, is simply deluded.

NHS needs to be cut back, scaled back HEAVILY, then rebuilt from a solid and sturdy base with as little waste as possible.

You've got literally dozens of services that overlap and do much of the same jobs, but at increased cost because rather than proper organisation, you've got Labour(and sometimes Torys) who see a newspaper story about, some condition, so they fund some new inititive to combat whatever the heck it is. But it won't be well thought out, it will overlap with other services, you'll be wasting money and paying more people than you need. Thats what the NHS is now, a specialised unit for everything, which leaves some people completely wasted and not busy and other units massively overworked.

Theres been no planning, no thinking, nothing in the NHS for decades, just pilling crap on top of crap on top of crap.

IT needs to go back to the start and build up ina sensible way.

Is the Tory changes the right ones, some are, some aren't, some of the changes are exactly what is needed, some bits aren't going to help at all.

The biggest issue is, getting rid of the waste, and not just putting all the excess paper pushers into the job market with no jobs. Thats been the fundamental problem in the UK for the past 20 years, increasing population, decreasing jobs, increasing public sector wasteful jobs and losing private sector business.
 
maustin said:
For starters:

Do you want GPs to be able to profit from the services they refer for? 5mins slots at the GP with a Keeerrcchhhiiinnnng as you close the door to another successful referral.
Click to expand...

given how many people we have on here complaining that gp's never give them referrals that sounds like a win :confused:
 
Tefal said:
given how many people we have on here complaining that gp's never give them referrals that sounds like a win :confused:
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Let's say at the moment you have a GP practice like the one I use. One of the GPs there is quite the hippy and into alternative medicine - his wife runs the "alternative medicine" shop next door and is an "alternative medicine" practitioner. Do you want the chance of seeing a specialist as per the current system or do you want everyone who they can possibly get away with getting pushed next door to the "qualified provider". The GP referral should be based upon patient needs and best evidence not financial benefit of the person making the referral.

For what it's worth again I am not as pro the NHS as plenty of posters here are against it. I just realise that wholescale changes for little tangible benefit are what have corrupted the system over they years as another layer of management is recruited to implement the new order. Except it's the same faces getting the new roles but you don't see new faces on the shop floor as those frontline posts are where the recruitment freezes are implemented.

In my view:

The government needs to give the responsibility to drive care on long-term goals towards the professionals who understand healthcare who make decisions based upon best practice only with no financial benefit from offering not best practice.
The government needs to accept accountability for the provision of care for all entitled people.
The government needs to address the various factors that define the health of a population and not measure or expect success purely on the addressing of symptoms and medical management of problems.
The government needs to address inequalities on health across the population both in terms of the poor and rich, where you live, etc
The government needs to have the balls to draw a line in the sand on what treatment is given and what is not from a broad rethink of what healthcare means when we talk about free healthcare not this corruption of the original goals what seems to never have really been adjusted as provision and practice has so drastically changed. Once it decides this broad design ie this is what we think the population should be getting then they need to let the people who can deliver that run with it.


Not one of those is being offered here at all. Therefore, the people need to realise the health of the nation is too important to be left with such substantial interference from politicians.
 
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drunkenmaster said:
... Right now GP's are incredibly highly paid for doing very very little and passing the responsibility (and most of their utter failures) on "real" doctors hands. ...
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Do you have any evidence to support this nonsense :confused:

drunkenmaster said:
... Gp's (sic) simply do not want more responsibility, nor do they want to justify patient target bonuses and crap health care provision when, the only people they will be able to blame when people still complain about it, is them. ...
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Do you have an English translation of this? BabelFish crashes on it.

drunkenmaster said:
... Cutting administration staff is the ONLY way to move forwards in the NHS ...
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And who does the administration, or doesn't that matter :confused:

drunkenmaster said:
... The NHS can cut paperwork in half, lose 10k's of staff in the back rooms, drop spending dramatically . . . while improving service. ...
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You are not a great fan of administration and paperwork are you? Do you actually have ANY basis at all for your assertions or are they just some random ideas that popped into your cranial vacuum?

drunkenmaster said:
... NHS needs to be cut back, scaled back HEAVILY, then rebuilt from a solid and sturdy base ...
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Meanwhile . . . back in the waiting room . . . :rolleyes:

drunkenmaster said:
... You've got literally dozens of services that overlap and do much of the same jobs ...
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Do you have any examples of this?

drunkenmaster said:
... Theres been no planning, no thinking, nothing in the NHS for decades ...
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You think? You think that the endless series of changes to which the NHS has been subject have been undertaken with absolutely no planning or thinking? This has gone on for decades has it?

drunkenmaster said:
... IT needs to go back to the start and build up ina sensible way. ...
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What :confused:

drunkenmaster said:
... Is the Tory changes the right ones, ...
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What :confused:

drunkenmaster said:
... The biggest issue is, getting rid of the waste ...
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Are you able to offer specifics? I'm sure the Department of Health would welcome your pearls of wisdom.

drunkenmaster said:
... not just putting all the excess paper pushers into the job market with no jobs. ...
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What :confused:

drunkenmaster said:
... Thats been the fundamental problem in the UK for the past 20 years, increasing population, decreasing jobs, increasing public sector wasteful jobs and losing private sector business. ...
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You are suggesting that the NHS is the cause of private sector business losses are you?


Perhaps you were 'tired and emotional' when you made that vague post, I can think of no other plausible explanation for it :rolleyes:
 
maustin said:
Well that wasn't really targeted at you. No prizes though ;)

If you want effective political demonstrations then you will be interested to hear that the RCN is discussing industrial action for pretty much the first time - that will be about as crippling as you can get - I remember when it happened in Canada and the government said they would not cave in - they did by lunchtime - they then tried to pass a law to prevent strikeaction - so everyone resigned. Stupid fight for any government to take - by my reckoning that's over half a million women of which at any one time one-hundred thousand will be hormonal. Would you pick a fight with one-hundred thousand hormonal women - I know I wouldn't.

There are plenty of initiatives for sorting out the NHS - in fact it is quite simple - stop treating those that should not be treated and let the people who understand the system get on with doing things rather than moving the goalposts every 4 yrs. The health of the nation is far too important to be left in the hands of those who aim to be re-elected on short-term promises when the solutions are long-term in nature. And managers who would never have a clue what to do if someone had got chickenpox let alone anything else can just **** off when they think that the NHS can directly translate methodology from a Toyota production line for cars into the task of looking after the milieu of patients that passes through the average hospital.

You can't improve the health of a nation without addressing the poverty level - Lalonde Report etc etc - with the Tories doing the utmost to increase the gap between the rich and the poor (not really in it all together are we let's face it) then you can expect the health to decrease. Reducing funding, preventing recruitment, closing beds, at this time is not really going to do any good unless you aim to solve the housing problem. overall NHS and social services cost etc by killing off the poor in which case it's a good strategy.
Click to expand...

maustin said:
For starters:

Do you want GPs to be able to profit from the services they refer for? 5mins slots at the GP with a Keeerrcchhhiiinnnng as you close the door to another successful referral.
Do you want any parliamentary figures to take no accountability for the NHS? Moreover to have it enshrined in law - "sorry Guvnor couldn't do a dicky bird forbidden by law I'm only the Sec for State hands were tied not my fault."
How about recent history where private money has won over staff expertise eg Central Surrey Health losing contracts to Assura.
Do you want this massive unprecedented and unwanted change to be facilitated by yet more highly paid consultants that seem to have done diddly squat for the preceding decades?
Do you want less than 1000 inspectors to check EVERYTHING - not that they do their job properly anyway as everyone knows when they are coming.
Does the massive movement towards private care not worry you when private care is so often very very deficient in this country and also with little expertise outside niche money making areas?

It's quite simple if you need to feed a family with a limited budget you need to use that budget well. What you don't do is to pay outside people to tell you how to do that out of your already limited budget. You don't get Molly Maid into do your cleaning when all they will do is drink the gin and not do anything. You don't go an adopt a baby from every different continent because it's the done thing and you want to appear altruistic. You don't blow the budget on one person. You don't buy Alienware laptops to surf the internet. Etc

Addressing the problems of the NHS is rather stupid without addressing immigration, the gap between the poor and the rich, the size of houses, the affordability of houses, the change of employment, education, lifestyle.

Patient choice is an illusion how can you have choice with all the different things that go wrong with you and that will only increase with time. Gone are the days were we all died from consumption. People are that specialised in things now that for many things there is no other option - a point I often have raised - it is then stated to me that then a fair price should be agree by the very people who then argue in other threads bankers are entitled to massive bonuses because they have a limited skillset and because that is what people will pay. Do you want some medics to start using that philosophy - do you want to sell your house to fund the life of a family member. Because the ever blues of this forum will sanction that for one sector of the economy so it would be rather hypocritical if they did not do it for another soon to be emerging sector. When all the qualified providers for a given thing are in the private sector where are the price constraints and how the hell do the inspectors check for compliance. Where is the contribution from qualified providers towards training. Where is the contribution from qualified providers towards outcomes other than monetary. Where is the contribution from qualified providers towards innovation.

Challenge for your google skills Castiel - as I am sure you are aware significant provision of mental health services in this country comes from private companies. Surf the medical and nursing journals - how many are coming from those private units?

Oh and btw I am retired my job description these days is stay-at-home dad - far better it's a bit like being back in the army except I crawl around on the floor more, get less sleep and get shouted at more - get a better colour palette for the face paint though I'll give it that much.
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Now that is more like it, something of substance that I can use as a reference to research the issues myself.

I will get back to you in due course.
 
Castiel said:
Now that is more like it, something of substance that I can use as a reference to research the issues myself.

I will get back to you in due course.
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I will continue my ramblings with another example in regards to private provision in this country. Let's say there is a disease that is treated with a simple course of antibiotics given once per day by IV injection for 12 days. Each dose lets say costs £10 and the administration costs i.e staffing etc at £10. The problem being that the anitbiotic has a therapeutic range where if you give too much you cause renal failure - doesn't happen very often if you are careful ... so you test the blood levels every 3 days for best practice and ever 4 days for acceptable practice.

Now the traditional NHS has to offer that at 12 x £20 + every 3 days they need to run a blood test to check the dosage isn't too high which lets say = 3 x £50. But they do not need to make a profit = £390

Now a private company can offer that at 12 x £20 = £240 + 2 x 50 = £340 and lets say 10% profit = £374

Who will get the contract - not the NHS - the private company is cheaper. But they are not accounting for the differing blood tests practices - why should they if they mess up it is not them footing the £100k cost for the patient with dead kidneys. So hardly justifiable for them to keep testing for such a small risk is it. The NHS however will pick up this tab so it is in their interest to ensure it does not happen. If you think this is far-fetched look at a drugs such as amikacin and vancomycin and their implementation in the private and public health sectors and their testing frequencies. Private providers when making a profit should also be accountable for their errors when that rectification has to be carried out by another team. Can't just have it all one-way ...

TL : DR ; = Private companies are not footing the bills for their mistakes.
 
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