The great EU debate

Biohazard · 18 Oct 2011 at 17:56

Why are we one of the only countries in the EU generally considered too stupid on here to vote on the matter?

I disagree it is too complex for an "average Joe" to get an adequate handle on. If people can understand to relative degress regional and national government, and beyond, they can understand what is nothing more than yet another layer of of Government. It really is nothing more than a cost - benefit analysis, and ideology. There will always be voters who vote for preconceved ideas or irrationally, but you can't be so selective on which levels this is acceptable on. Especially when it siphons away the power that those people should hold.

UncleRuckus · 18 Oct 2011 at 17:58

Playing the devils advocate here, but I can't think of anything which have I positively benefited from, being a British citizen in the EU.

Colasanto · 18 Oct 2011 at 18:11

Quite simply leaving the EU is a bad move, such a terrible idea. This is just a waste of time and money.

Biohazard · 18 Oct 2011 at 18:16

Colasanto said:
Quite simply leaving the EU is a bad move, such a terrible idea. This is just a waste of time and money.

Why, and why?

Strife212 · 18 Oct 2011 at 18:17

Colasanto said:
Quite simply leaving the EU is a bad move, such a terrible idea. This is just a waste of time and money.

Or not. It's a colossal money sink, imposing laws we didn't vote for.

The free trade was a great idea, the federal superstate not so much.

shoes · 18 Oct 2011 at 18:19

UncleRuckus said:
Playing the devils advocate here, but I can't think of anything which have I positively benefited from, being a British citizen in the EU.

I haven't had a cheque in the post from the European Union either, however, it cannot be completely without merit else we wouldn't be in the EU.

PMKeates · 18 Oct 2011 at 18:19

Strife212 said:
the federal superstate not so much.

Why's that?

UncleRuckus said:
Playing the devils advocate here, but I can't think of anything which have I positively benefited from, being a British citizen in the EU.

The whole process played a fairly significant part in the bringing about of peace in Europe. That's reasonably positive benefit.

Westyfield2 · 18 Oct 2011 at 18:21

I can just picture Farage

.

UncleRuckus · 18 Oct 2011 at 18:22

shoes said:
I haven't had a cheque in the post from the European Union either, however, it cannot be completely without merit else we wouldn't be in the EU.

I'm not asking for money, just at least something which makes it worth it.

UncleRuckus · 18 Oct 2011 at 18:24

PMKeates said:
Why's that?The whole process played a fairly significant part in the bringing about of peace in Europe. That's reasonably positive benefit.

You can do that without the EU though.

Biohazard · 18 Oct 2011 at 18:25

PMKeates said:
Why's that?The whole process played a fairly significant part in the bringing about of peace in Europe. That's reasonably positive benefit.

A military defence pact that has turned into a near undemocratic political and nightmarish fiscal Union.

A defence pact alone would have kept Europe peacefull, as would the LON and UN.

Colasanto · 18 Oct 2011 at 18:29

Biohazard said:
Why, and why?

The bbc news comment sums up my OWN interests in this rather well (main pt1 atleast)

92.
Kevin
33 Minutes ago

I'm young and job prospects in this country aren't fantastic. At least by being part of the EU I have the ability to live and work in a fellow Member State freely and easily - and that's not a privilege I want to give up!

In fact, as a whole. A lot of the "dont want to leave EU posts on those comments" sums up my interests well (to a certain extent).

In times of need, we rely heavily on friends and allies. I don't want to be part of the crap on the back of everyone elses shoe. Solid entity and independence is not the way forward. But we all know this won't happen, I'll be shocked and surprised if it does.

PsychoPigeon · 18 Oct 2011 at 18:29

I don't like the idea of socialist control. Get out asap.

PMKeates · 18 Oct 2011 at 18:30

UncleRuckus said:
You can do that without the EU though.

I guess you've completely ignored the point of my post then. The comment was that he couldn't think of anything that he has positively benefited from, I listed one fairly significant thing.

Biohazard said:
A military defence pact that has turned into a near undemocratic political and nightmarish fiscal Union.

A defence pact alone would have kept Europe peacefull, as would the LON and UN.

That is completely besides the point. Almost inarguably the EU has contributed to peace in Europe. Whether it could have been done any other way is immaterial as to whether it was a positive force or not. Everything could be done every other way but that's very different from the way in which it was actually done. I also disagree that a defence pact alone would have kept Europe peaceful.

Biohazard · 18 Oct 2011 at 18:36

PMKeates said:
Almost inarguably the EU has contributed to peace in Europe. Whether it could have been done any other way is immaterial as to whether it was a positive force or not.

How so more than the defensive pact, and world peace organisations to come from the period?

How has political and fiscal Union, which has come relatively recently in comparison to those wars, prevented more European wars?

PMKeates said:
Everything could be done every other way but that's very different from the way in which it was actually done.

Yes, and? I don't believe it was done through political union. The powerblocks left behind the vaccum of 1945 would see we would never threaten our existance again in such fashion.

Strife212 · 18 Oct 2011 at 18:40

This is an interesting video I found regarding the new ESM bailout fund.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gls3pO-94b4

(Not the usual 2 hour long tinfoil hat video, it's three and a half minutes long.)

UncleRuckus · 18 Oct 2011 at 18:43

PMKeates said:
I guess you've completely ignored the point

No I haven't; I have counter pointed to you that we do not need to be a member of the EU to bring about peace.

It's not really a benefit if we can do this ourselves now is it?

cheets64 · 18 Oct 2011 at 18:56

Nate--IRL-- said:
Might it be safe to say cheets64 would represent the majority of public opinion? That is the reason there will never be referendum.

Nate

ha, when was the last time the general public made a bank fail or took the country to war?

Dont underestimate the general public.

PMKeates · 18 Oct 2011 at 19:04

UncleRuckus said:
No I haven't; I have counter pointed to you that we do not need to be a member of the EU to bring about peace.

It's not really a benefit if we can do this ourselves now is it?

No you haven't counter pointed to me. I am addressing history, not presenting an argument. Your 'counter point' is a bit like saying that we didn't need the wheel because we could have done it another way. Great. We didn't. On the basis of your argument we don't need anything ever because there's other ways to do it that may or may not be superior but we'll never know because they weren't done. I don't understand how it's possible to argue that the EU hasn't had any positive impact on the basis that other organisations could have had the same positive impact if we had allowed them to.

Biohazard said:
How so more than the defensive pact, and world peace organisations to come from the period?

The European Union and it's predecessor/component organisations have been critical in establishing greater interdependancy (through commerce), commonality and the spreading of fundamental rights and freedoms throughout Europe in a very real way. These sorts of changes are what have created a lasting peace.

Tute · 18 Oct 2011 at 19:05

I'm with UncleRuckus, we seem to put a lot of money into the EU for very little benefit (or rather, benefits that we couldn't get ourselves without the huge drain on the taxpayer).

Sometimes I wonder if we're just in it to give our politicians somewhere to go after they retire from mainstream politics (Tony Blair, anyone?).