![[TW]Fox](/data/man-of-honor/2009.png){kind=avatar}
You think I should leave a country that isn't holding a referendum because I disagree with the idea of a referendum?
You post some properly odd stuff but this is the best this week
The great EU debate
- Thread starter Judgeneo
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You think I should leave a country that isn't holding a referendum because I disagree with the idea of a referendum?
You post some properly odd stuff but this is the best this week
Why do we need to be a part of the EU to trade with other EU countries?
[TW]Fox;20340553 said:You think I should leave a country that isn't holding a referendum because I disagree with the idea of a referendum?
You post some properly odd stuff but this is the best this week
Well if you don't trust them on the EU how do you trust them on the UK?
We don't.
It is true though.
For example, there are numerous aspects of the EU which, crudely, I guess you could say the UK is 'being crapped on' over.
Are you able to name all of them, and explain in a coherent fashion with sensible rationale what is wrong and why?
There is nothing wrong with not having a detailed understanding of how the EU works. Infact such knowledge is useless for 99% of the country anyway - but not having this understanding makes it hard to have an educated vote on a subject as important as this, surely?
Some countries had a referendum on the EU Constitution. How many of the voters had read it? How can you have an educated vote on a document you've not read?
No one who opposes the EU could be qualified to talk on the subject of law?
Oddly your post doesn't come across as very authoritative, more abusive than anything..
First of all, how do you know if I'm English or not?
Second, when did I say "your" people as you so kindly put it should have that right taken away from them in my post? Please highlight it.
Third of all, typical xenophobic attitude, you completely ignored anything I said and jumped straight to conclusions, you can't argue with people like this, you can't say you want to leave the EU because they aren't English, that kind of small minded thinking doesn't get any country anywhere.
The truth is, I've seen your posts every time something about the EU is posted, you're just an arrogant ignorant little xenophobic man who doesn't have an informed opinion on the subject and is not prepared to be educated because "they're not English", thanks for showing these forums your true colors, I'm sure your fellow little Englanders pub dwellers are extremely proud of you right now.
http://www.bnp.org.uk/
Here's a link to a national party that would probably appreciate the kind of intellectual debate your small mind can participate in.
[TW]Fox;20340569 said:
Who are you to say what the average understanding is though? It is entirely based upon your perception and experience. It isn't universal.
You can't "read the document" either, well not properly. It's a list of ammendments that would be nonsense out of context, you'd need a fair of other documentation to digest them all.
That doesn't mean people can't form their own opinions from a Yes/No campaign if they cannot or will not do the above.
I don't, but we don't have very many referendums on UK issues either? We elect people who, in theory, have the understanding needing to represent us to vote on these issues instead. Note 'in theory' before flaming.
I only used the phrase 'The British Public' because I am British and live here. My opinion would be the same if I was talking about the general public in any country - simply because its only natural that the people voting in a referendum would not, on the whole, have an educated and informed opinion on the subject at hand.
How many of the people who voted for/against AV or PR actually knew, really, how either worked?
I include myself in much of this - if you asked me tommorrow to vote on whether we should remain in or out of the EU I wouldn't be confident that I could make the right call. I'd need to spend ages deciding. Ages that most people won't spend because, quite frankly, they've probably got more important things to be doing!
You can't honestly beleive you think that on average, people in this country have the right depth of understanding as to the operation of the EU to make a decision on whether we should remain in or out thats based on an educated and sensible opinion? Really?
You would vote no, and your vote would be an educated and sensible decision. Whether its right or wrong is irrelevent, but at least you understand what the EU is and you've got sensible and rational opinion as to why you dislike it. Do you think everyone in your street is as educated on the issue as you are?
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Hehe, Cameron is going for a three-line whip against the vote (according to Westminster journalist/lobbyist Sean Dilley). I guess that's this issue taken care of since every MP who has any ambition of serving in the Cabinet someday will vote against it or abstain.
If you're looking for things that have benefited individuals, how about the various consumer protection regulations for flights, mobile phone calls, etc, that have taken at least some of the edge off rip-off Britain or the easy travel across the continent?
It's true, ain't it? With countries like China, India and Brazil on the rise, any single European state is going to become fairly irrelevant on the world stage. The days when Britain was a world power are never coming back and everyone needs to start dealing with it.
Look at the countries in the EU, in terms of military capability, of the top of my head you would put them roughly in the following tiers...
Britain, France Germany.
Spain, Italy
Etc etc.......
What military capability do Latvia and Estonia offer?
I think there are two debates here.
1) The EU? Good or bad?
2) The EU in its current form? Good or bad.
I think the EU is, on balance, a good thing. However, not in its current form. I think the recent expansion was wrong and is incompatible with the original aims of the EU.
I suspect although your opinion is that the EU is bad, what you really think is that the EU in its current form is bad. Almost all the criticism relates to issues around the EU's expansion to include much less economically active countries.
[TW]Fox;20340664 said:
We have what is essentially a referendum on who manages the UK every four years.
The EU is no different.
We vote on manifesto broadly. Most politicians have understanding, they just differ on interperation and dogma. No politician has any right to supercede popular opinion and say you are not intelligent enough for this and refuse to represent the prevailing will.
It smashes through our democracy. The "too stupid" argument pokes holes through too many other instruments for it to really stave off all valid concerns over this process.
[TW]Fox;20340664 said:
All we should contend yourself with is the support to have a say on the subject matter, regardless of the concerns over personal intricacies of knowledge and confidence. You risk undermining what benefits there could be by refusing to acknowledge democratic process.
I imagine they offer a military capability broadly inline with their size. Talk of military power is beside the point really - it's economic power that's really going to matter this century.
I think Moses has explained quite well why these are two different things and one is ok and the other isn't.
Walk into your local supermarket, pick somebody at random, and say 'EU - in or out and why'. I reckon you've got a 10% chance of being given an answer thats even based on reasoning thats factually accurate. Most of the country still thinks the government gave away our money for free to banks!
You really think that sort of opinion should dictate the way our country goes on something like this?
Soldato
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Crude words for crude treatment.[TW]Fox;20340569 said:
[TW]Fox;20340569 said:
No I'm not able to name all of them.
But I can see the negative impact it is happening to my countrymen from the free movement of labour. {edit} getting late, I can give more detail tomorrow.Oh sure, but we live in a democracy so people have the right to vote.[TW]Fox;20340569 said:
Have we been given a referendum? I think the Queen very hush, hushly signed the final document a couple of years ago.[TW]Fox;20340569 said:
How many people read them in other countries?
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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/...-into-disarray-by-European-patent-ruling.html
There is a decision made by the EU which could harm the UK.
There is a decision made by the EU which could harm the UK.
No I'm not able to name all of them.
So in reality you'd probably be happier not out of the EU, but in the EU in a different form. Free movement of labour isnt the issue, the issue is the disparity betwen some of the countries in the EU, and the effect free movement of labour allows this to have.
As I said earlier - we are not over-run with Germans living here are we?
In an election, yes. I dont beleive referendums on everything are a 'right'?
There is enough swing to cause damage as our post war decline has exemplified.
Yes, in the fact that we could remove ourself from an institution.
That is debatable and subjective to be fair, the UK could do it's significantly more damage than it does now in terms of the vote.
They way in which they do it. When those elected members help damage this country domestically, what does it say for their ability? Do you trust Gordon Brown much? The question should be why do they refuse to offer their often promised referendum?
What needs to go to referendum in the UK is political union to the EU, now the only alternative would be EFTA. I don't think a referendum would be required for EFTA membership since it is broadly similar to what was the EEC which enjoyed public support.
I think the failure of UKIP is down to the lacklustre policy elsewhere other than Europe, and their arrogant and offensive style of argument in Brussels.