The great EU debate

[PMKeates]

I'm with UncleRuckus, we seem to put a lot of money into the EU for very little benefit (or rather, benefits that we couldn't get ourselves without the huge drain on the taxpayer).

A random link to some Eurospectic website:

http://www.democracymovementsurrey.co.uk/dyk_eucosts.html

They quote a Telegraph article that states that the EU costs the average Briton £32 a year. It also mentions that the average Pole gains £103. Sounds fine? They could do with some help to turn them in to bigger consumers for Western European banking and insurance products, cars, clothes, chocolates etc.

 

[Biohazard]

.The European Union and it's predecessor organisations have been critical in establishing greater interdependancy (through commerce), commonality and the spreading of fundamental rights and freedoms throughout Europe in a very real way. These sorts of changes are what have created a lasting peace.

I don't think the political Union has increased interdependency at all, we needed each other for trade before as we do now relatively. What the political and economic union has done is made us too connected to the problems over others, particularly on the economic side.

Individual countries can sign into charters such as human rights, it doesn't need a near undemocratic and very expensive legislature to do so.

Political Unionism in the EU from Maastricht Treaty in '92 onwards has little to do with post war enduring peace. It was the precursors, defence and trade treaties and a new global landscape that fostered peace in Europe.

 

[PMKeates]

I don't think the political Union has increased interdependency at all, we needed each other for trade before as we do now relatively. What the political and economic union has done is made us too connected to the problems over others, particularly on the economic side.

There is no possibility to be disconnected from the problems of others now or in the future. International finance and globalisation are what are making us very connected.

 

[Biohazard]

A random link to some Eurospectic website:

http://www.democracymovementsurrey.co.uk/dyk_eucosts.html

They quote a Telegraph article that states that the EU costs the average Briton £32 a year. It also mentions that the average Pole gains £103. Sounds fine? They could do with some help to turn them in to bigger consumers for Western European banking and insurance products, cars, clothes, chocolates etc.

How long are the German people particularly, and those who can manage an economy in the Euro crisis, expected to underwrite this frivolous socialist dream?

 

[Biohazard]

There is no possibility to be disconnected from the problems of others. International finance and globalisation are what are making us very connected.

When they are individual sovereign issues, yes we can. We can't keep pretending nation states cannot or must not fail or default in the wider picture. This is hubris more than economic sense.

 

[PMKeates]

How long are the German people particularly, and those who can manage an economy in the Euro crisis, expected to underwrite this frivolous socialist dream?

What makes it frivolous and socialist? Most private or charity organisations do not have the ability to conduct large scale development of Eastern Europe even if they can see the long-term benefits; it's just not something within their ability. The EU can help do this. The German economy benefits from middle-class Poles and Romanians desiring and eventually buying Audis, BMWs etc.

Think of it as something like that American highway system. A US federal project that spent federal tax money, more of which will have come from the richer people in California, New York etc, to develop transport links between the states. These freeways have almost certainly been of net economic gain for everybody in the US, yet no private organisation or group of states could have managed such an enourmous project.

 

[UncleRuckus]

Your 'counter point' is a bit like saying that we didn't need the wheel because we could have done it another way. Great. We didn't.

Exactly! We had already invented the wheel why would we need to buy another one when we can do perfectly well ourselves?

On the basis of your argument we don't need anything ever because there's other ways to do it that may or may not be superior but we'll never know because they weren't done.

Replace what you are thinking about the EU in this paragraph with Britain.

I don't understand how it's possible to argue that the EU hasn't had any positive impact on the basis that other organisations could have had the same positive impact if we had allowed them to.

I'm sorry you don't understand, it's pretty simple.

 

[UncleRuckus]

A random link to some Eurospectic website:

http://www.democracymovementsurrey.co.uk/dyk_eucosts.html

They quote a Telegraph article that states that the EU costs the average Briton £32 a year. It also mentions that the average Pole gains £103. Sounds fine? They could do with some help to turn them in to bigger consumers for Western European banking and insurance products, cars, clothes, chocolates etc.

Great so that's me £32 a year poorer, but it's okay though the Poles are £103 up. So I'm paying them to displace local factory workers jobs, brilliant just getting better and better.

 

[scorza]

Playing the devils advocate here, but I can't think of anything which have I positively benefited from, being a British citizen in the EU.

Free movement, right to be treated equally with locals as an employee or resident in any EU country. Personally I think the fact we can go and live in Spain, France or wherever without going through immigration bureaucracy as a massive benefit.

The EU isn't perfect, there are plenty of EU rules that I don't agree with, but by staying in at least we get a say in what those rules are.

Edit: a lot of the benefits of the EU are subtle too. One thing a lot of people might not realise is that Spain was a fascist dictatorship until 1975, and then in a sorry old state. The EU has helped transform Spain from essentially a third world country into what it is today (maybe not the best example right now lol ). The question is do you agree that having a stable, prosperous democracy in a near neighbour country like Spain is good for the UK? I would say without a shadow of a doubt.

 

[[TW]Fox]

The problem is not the EU, it is the EU in its current form. The idea behind the EU is economically sound and is very much a good thing. However it's evolution leaves a lot to be desired. Initially, the EU contained a selection of economically similar countries. There was not a flood of French people moving to England when the EU was formed simply because living standards were similar in both countries.

The problems immigration wise began when the EU was opened up to countries with vastly different living standards. Once this has happened what happened next was fairly obvious - why wouldn't people in relatively poorer countries move to richer countries given the chance?

 

[franco_22]

Having studied EU law like Moses and some people here, the EU is really not a subject for the average joe to discuss at the pub. Still, nothing will happen from this, we won't leave the EU period and this is nothing more then a couple of MPs trying to put themselves on the map similar to what the BNP did during the last election.

People need to lose this xenophobic little England mentality and actually do some research on the matter before shouting nonsense, there's a reason why so many countries want to be a part of the most powerful economic and political organization in the world and it's not something little Union Jack can give up right now because a few locals are too thick and xenophobic too understand the privilege. Sometimes I think people in this little Island still think they own half the world. Wake up, the EU is our last hope of political, economical and military survival.

 

[cheets64]

Free movement, right to be treated equally with locals as an employee or resident in any EU country. Personally I think the fact we can go and live in Spain, France or wherever without going through immigration bureaucracy as a massive benefit.

The EU isn't perfect, there are plenty of EU rules that I don't agree with, but by staying in at least we get a say in what those rules are.

haha yeah right

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-15325647

 

[Biohazard]

What makes it frivolous and socialist?

Re-distribution of wealth rarely works. It is socialist in the sense it would seem to want longterm economic and social parity, to then act as one unified block.

Most private or charity organisations do not have the ability to conduct large scale development of Eastern Europe even if they can see the long-term benefits; it's just not something within their ability. The EU can help do this. The German economy benefits from middle-class Poles and Romanians desiring and eventually buying Audis, BMWs etc.

Think of it as something like that American highway system. A US federal project that spent federal tax money, more of which will have come from the richer people in California, New York etc, to develop transport links between the states. These freeways have almost certainly been of net economic gain for everybody in the US, yet no private organisation or group of states could have managed such an enourmours project.

The EU is a burden to this process, it is an increasingly expensive and bureaucratic overhead and many of it's practices in effect end up being anti-business. EU divective after another stiffles business. We can't group countries together for political and milatary purposes, and expect economic parity especially while making the process rather more tedious and labourious. Transport infrastructure in sections of Europe and beyond are probably better than ours, convergence of standards for example does not require a growing sovereign parliament either.

The East isn't a basket case, sections of it are doing better than us in certain terms. Competition, not subsidies will improve the position of others. Greece takes bailout after bailout and cannot reform, yet we keep throwing at it in some perverse case of vanity. This is not improvement, this is trying to save a political dream. These instances are the dangers of a runaway EU state.

 

[Danthus]

............Wake up, the EU is our last hope of political, economical and military survival.

 

[[TW]Fox]

haha yeah right

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-15325647

Also affects Spanish people.

 

[Biohazard]

Great so that's me £32 a year poorer, but it's okay though the Poles are £103 up. So I'm paying them to displace local factory workers jobs, brilliant just getting better and better.

Welcome to the blunt EU socialist dream.

Perhaps this is why Poland has done well during the recession, and we haven't.

The Economy of Poland is a high income economy[9] and is the sixth largest in the EU and one of the fastest growing economies in Europe, with a yearly growth rate of over 3.0% before the late-2000s recession.[10] It is the only member country of the European Union to have avoided a decline in GDP, meaning that in 2009 Poland has created the most GDP growth in the EU.[11] As of December 2009 the Polish economy had not entered recession nor contracted. According to the Central Statistical Office of Poland, In 2010 the Polish economic growth rate was 3.8 %, which was one of the best results in Europe.

 

[arknor]

Nothing scares me more than the idea of a decision as complex as this being in the hands of the British public.

then why dont you leave?

 

[Duke]

We need to keep in with the EU for trading but they can keep their nanny laws to themselves.

 

[UncleRuckus]

Having studied EU law like Moses and some people here, the EU is really not a subject for the average joe to discuss at the pub. Still, nothing will happen from this, we won't leave the EU period and this is nothing more then a couple of MPs trying to put themselves on the map similar to what the BNP did during the last election.

People need to lose this xenophobic little England mentality and actually do some research on the matter before shouting nonsense, there's a reason why so many countries want to be a part of the most powerful economic and political organization in the world and it's not something little Union Jack can give up right now because a few locals are too thick and xenophobic too understand the privilege. Sometimes I think people in this little Island still think they own half the world. Wake up, the EU is our last hope of political, economical and military survival.

LOL!!!!!!

You're not even English yet you would like my people to have the privilege of voting on the EU taken away from them because they are too stupid to even comprehend how they're being crapped on from the mainland.

Please, please, please share your identity with us.

 

[franco_22]

We need to keep in with the EU for trading but they can keep their nanny laws to themselves.

That's just like saying, you need to stay in your job for your wages so you can buy food and shelter but they can keep their rules and regulations to themselves thou isn't it? Or you need to stay in your parents house for food and shelter but they can keep their rules for themselves?

Doesn't that sound a bit infantile to say? You want all the benefits but none of the responsibilities. And what nanny laws upset you so much? European human rights perhaps? I know... what an atrocity, specially considering the UK was a huge advocate for them after the second world war.