yes, mavity is a made up thing on the internet, I have never seen any proof of mavity......... never seen any experiments that predict the effects of mavity...
Take a bow, mighty conservative Britain, the workhouses are back
- Thread starter oulton
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yes, mavity is a made up thing on the internet, I have never seen any proof of mavity......... never seen any experiments that predict the effects of mavity...
I was being sarcastic.
There is a measure of certainty and plausibility of theoretical science. Whilst mavity and evolution measure on the very high end. Something like "learned helplessness" is on the low to middle end of the scale...
You really don't understand what you're doing here do you? It's a discussion forum. People you encounter in the real world will have different opinions to you. Labelling them "morons" for daring to disagree with you is not going to get you very far in life.
In any case, I didn't deny that "learned helplessness" is not a factor. It could well be. I just said you can't use it as a fact like you were doing. I also suggested that other human psychological traits can help counteract negative ones like "learned helplessness". What exactly have I said here that has offended you so much?
Caporegime
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Never heard of learned helplessness, whilst I’m sure therapy would help I’m not sure it's a practical solution, we need to break the won't work ethic that some people family’s have, much like drugs addiction it must be a cycle that’s hard to break out of.
Like we both say no-one is entitled to anything in life, you want it you work for it, some have to work harder than others to get this, some get a break in like and others don't, if people want it they will go out and get it.
I agree the cycle has to end.
What we need is to take a scientific, intelligent & rational approach.
We need to recognise the underline causes of this negative behaviour & put in measures to ensure it does not occur again.
If we want to get rid of the "benefits culture" then this is how to do it.
Everything else is just political spin based on ideologically driven rubbish (from both Labour & the Tory's) - what we can't do is ignore our vast understanding on behaviourism/sociology/psychology when making these calls.
You want everybody to make a contribution because you do, fair enough - but let's look at the facts & find a workable solution while causing the least possible suffering.
This proposed idea goes against out basic understanding of what motivates people - unpaid labour has no "carrot", no reward mechanism.
If they intent to force them into Labour at any point, then paying them a real wage for it - would have some merit - as it would at least be positively reinforcing the working experience with a monetary reward.
I strongly believe that therapy for the long term unemployed/demotivated would yield great results, while expensive at first it would be a long term investment for future generations.
I've only read page 1 and 5 as there seemed to be a lot of cyclical arguments going on.
In my department (but I don't think the university on a larger scale) we've taken on a lot of people on 3/4 week part time "back to work" placements, usually people with a specific barrier to them being able to get a job or hold one down. They are essentially given secondary school level work experience, a couple of days seeing what everyone does and then get them helping out with someone suitable, which can be tricky as we're mostly high level IT support, but there's usually something.
We also had two people from the future jobs fund, which although I think it was 6 month placements, sounds like the closest to this new scheme. There is a stage of interview, but mostly to measure interest/keeness rather than ability, and they are placed into an actual role. They get their JSA plus an allowance to cover travel (and maybe lunch). For the employers side we had to provide something of benefit, in addition to getting them into the routine of working, there had to be measurable reward in the form of training or similar.
The guy we had on our team proved himself to be hard working, keen to learn and reasonably savvy so we managed to get him an interview in another team in the university about 3 months into his placement, which he got.
There's nothing inherently wrong with the scheme in my eyes, although small things like a bus pass can tip the balance of whether it's fair or not. I'd argue that people who are working for their JSA, while they are benefitting from learning and getting used to going to work, should be rewarded in some way, especially in an optional scheme. Do tesco employees get staff discount? Obviously it's a nice touch if these placement people do as well.
In my department (but I don't think the university on a larger scale) we've taken on a lot of people on 3/4 week part time "back to work" placements, usually people with a specific barrier to them being able to get a job or hold one down. They are essentially given secondary school level work experience, a couple of days seeing what everyone does and then get them helping out with someone suitable, which can be tricky as we're mostly high level IT support, but there's usually something.
We also had two people from the future jobs fund, which although I think it was 6 month placements, sounds like the closest to this new scheme. There is a stage of interview, but mostly to measure interest/keeness rather than ability, and they are placed into an actual role. They get their JSA plus an allowance to cover travel (and maybe lunch). For the employers side we had to provide something of benefit, in addition to getting them into the routine of working, there had to be measurable reward in the form of training or similar.
The guy we had on our team proved himself to be hard working, keen to learn and reasonably savvy so we managed to get him an interview in another team in the university about 3 months into his placement, which he got.
There's nothing inherently wrong with the scheme in my eyes, although small things like a bus pass can tip the balance of whether it's fair or not. I'd argue that people who are working for their JSA, while they are benefitting from learning and getting used to going to work, should be rewarded in some way, especially in an optional scheme. Do tesco employees get staff discount? Obviously it's a nice touch if these placement people do as well.
CBA to read 13 pages of comments, but what I will say is I'm pleased this is being introduced. The OP states it's 'unpaid work'. No it's not, they're being paid by me and all the other tax payers.
There are far too many scroungers and work-shy scum out there. The benefits system is a perverse joke. Why do so many economic migrants find it easy to move here and immediately find legitimate employment? Because they have drive and a work ethic - something that is clearly lacking amongst the large majority of those on the dole.
There are far too many scroungers and work-shy scum out there. The benefits system is a perverse joke. Why do so many economic migrants find it easy to move here and immediately find legitimate employment? Because they have drive and a work ethic - something that is clearly lacking amongst the large majority of those on the dole.
hell, lets take it a step further,
lets have a business setup to re paint old ladys houses, repair fences etc.
we have one down here called RE:SOURCE who offer work placements for the unemployed who take them on for a while and show em how to repair furniture, fix washing machines or bikes etc.
self funding etc etc all good!
also, I was unemployed for 6 months at one point, I'd have GLADLY worked 9-5 monday to friday so that I didn't have a huge gap in my CV.
lets have a business setup to re paint old ladys houses, repair fences etc.
we have one down here called RE:SOURCE who offer work placements for the unemployed who take them on for a while and show em how to repair furniture, fix washing machines or bikes etc.
self funding etc etc all good!
also, I was unemployed for 6 months at one point, I'd have GLADLY worked 9-5 monday to friday so that I didn't have a huge gap in my CV.
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the fact less jobs will be out there now...
like the guy in the article working for a poundshop with 5 other job seekers...
whats the point of putting people on benefits just to get a few people on benefits into forced labor?
im just waiting for the news article about someone who used to be employed at tesco that lost there job , went on job seekers and ended up working at tesco again voluntary
This pretty much echoes my thoughts as well. The benefits system really does annoy me.
this is the main issue I can see
needs to not be tescos who do this. should be some charitble co or co-op or something.
Associate
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It's not as simple as that.
Immigrants live like 20 to a house and subsequently pay less rent.
Also, a lot of employers favour these immigrants because they are more easily exploited and willing to work for less than the minimum wage.
I was on JSA for a while, and after enough applications and interviews I did finally get a job in the sector I wanted and trained for in Uni, which I'm really enjoying (though more junior and low payed than I'd ideally want). Whilst I cant say that I'd have particularly liked having to do menial labour there's no real reason why I couldn't have done it. Vacancy checking and writing applications takes an hour a day, if that, thanks to web based Jobsites .
In hindsight it would probably have been a good thing mentally, the JSA lifestyle was incredibly depressing - meeting some new people and having a purpose for a few weeks would have been a refreshing change of pace. As long as I wasn't out of pocket for transport and could attend interviews when I needed to It certainly wouldn't have done me any harm.
In hindsight it would probably have been a good thing mentally, the JSA lifestyle was incredibly depressing - meeting some new people and having a purpose for a few weeks would have been a refreshing change of pace. As long as I wasn't out of pocket for transport and could attend interviews when I needed to It certainly wouldn't have done me any harm.
You'd be surprised as to how many people come up to me at work and say "I wouldn't do that." or regard me with obvious disdain, contempt, and sometimes even disgust.
I didn't 'choose' to be a cleaner. I needed a job. So I went out and got one. It took me a long time, and it's not where I want to be. But it pays the bills, fills my stomach and keeps me warm. I even have enough to purchase luxuries (luxury foods, internet, video games). Not because I sat around, but because I work damn hard for it doing jobs that most people think are beneath them.
If it were only as simple as "getting a job". For a lot of people, those without (recent) experience, who are older, who might have injuries/impairments, those without qualifications, or those who live in areas where it is notably difficult to find work - it's not easy. Many need to accept that a job is a job, even if it's McDonalds. And others need to be helped into work, training, work placements (that can actually lead to a job).
I didn't get any training when I was on JSA, no offers, while there were people being offered all sorts of courses when I went in. There are those who, like me, seem to be glossed over.
It's all a bit of a mess, and it's not helped by this "learned helplessness" so to speak.
I didn't 'choose' to be a cleaner. I needed a job. So I went out and got one. It took me a long time, and it's not where I want to be. But it pays the bills, fills my stomach and keeps me warm. I even have enough to purchase luxuries (luxury foods, internet, video games). Not because I sat around, but because I work damn hard for it doing jobs that most people think are beneath them.
If it were only as simple as "getting a job". For a lot of people, those without (recent) experience, who are older, who might have injuries/impairments, those without qualifications, or those who live in areas where it is notably difficult to find work - it's not easy. Many need to accept that a job is a job, even if it's McDonalds. And others need to be helped into work, training, work placements (that can actually lead to a job).
I didn't get any training when I was on JSA, no offers, while there were people being offered all sorts of courses when I went in. There are those who, like me, seem to be glossed over.
It's all a bit of a mess, and it's not helped by this "learned helplessness" so to speak.
The same for me, i was told before my first interview to bring a copy of my CV in for inspection but the JSA staff never asked for it and were never interested. I was never offered any courses or further training. However Ive been luckly enough to find employment as a temp for Royal Mail until xmas.