Programming should be part of the school syllabus

AberystwythLAD · 26 Nov 2011 at 06:12

Anyone else agree with me on this?

When you're a youngster, you find things far easier to pick up, for reasons unbeknown to myself, however its most likely to do with the way a child's brain processes data in comparison to an adult.

The UK has a problem. There is a shortage of software engineers with the advanced skill set to work in the top end of the sector. A few make it, however, they end up in countries like the USA, Germany or the Middle East working for top firms such as IBM and so forth.

I think one of the main problems in this country is we teach people code too late on. Im currently doing a degree and its just not sinking in at all. I can do it when its in front of me, I have some grasp of it but from a theoretical viewpoint i've not a clue. Now had I been taught the basics at a young age I would then have the basic understanding and the know how of how to utilise the Java API to my advantage. This is the same for any other language whether it be a verbal language or a programming language. Teach someone when they're young and its more likely that they'll pick it up quicker. Im not on about the advanced stuff but just the basics they can expand on as they grow up.

I mean,why does the curriculum include things like RE but not logical advanced things like programming or lifestyle important things like budgeting, accounting and finance? Its just ridiculous. :confused:

Anyone else think this should be the case?

Aleksandrs · 26 Nov 2011 at 06:22

I think if you're genuinely interested in it you'd learn it at any age. It's like any language (not just in programming terms). I agree though learning at a young age can help, I'd definitely speak to my child in multiple languages as it grows up, but not sure teaching them how to make an iphone app will sink in very easily.

However I think bringing the subject to secondary schools wouldn't be a bad idea. The problem with the vast amount of children today is they don't really know what they want to do at that age and like myself I go on to regret not paying attention in certain lessons (such as French and Spanish). I think if programming was dressed up to be something teens can relate to then it could work, like "smartphone app creation" or "video game programming". But then if it became compulsory you're going to have to find a huge amount of teacher trained people who are programmers.

I started learning Visual Basic at the age of 12, purely my own decisions and while it sank in and I was remembering how to code in basic, it also didn't take me long before I got bored and went onto something else and have gone on to forget everything.

Rich_L · 26 Nov 2011 at 06:23

Nah, just teach kids how to outsource to India/China effectively, seems a shame to waste time doing menial programming when you can be focusing on high concept stuff and get grunts earning $0.50 an hour to do all the code-crunching for you.

KaHn · 26 Nov 2011 at 06:27

Is programming language important in later life? It's not like learning english/french/german which has some benefit.

I see it as an option to anyone who would want to study programming and not for the masses. R.E. as most will agree is almost useless at secondary school but (as an agnostic) I still think it is important lesson to teach even if it is to just give people who may not have contact with other cultures an insight through teaching and hopefully a tollerance.

KaHn

wannabedamned · 26 Nov 2011 at 06:29

Its a good idea, but with the amount of kids who struggle with just the basic lessons, English, Maths and Science. I can imagine programming would go the way of mathematics with regards to childrens hate towards it.

KaHn · 26 Nov 2011 at 06:35

wannabedamned said:
Its a good idea, but with the amount of kids who struggle with just the basic lessons, English, Maths and Science. I can imagine programming would go the way of mathematics with regards to childrens hate towards it.

I loved maths

KaHn

Ceryndrion · 26 Nov 2011 at 06:50

Its strange, I could swear that the rudiments of programming were, or at least, they were when I was at school, though we mostly learnt Basic on BBC systems, then later on prolog and pascal..

Let me guess, computer science in schools these days consists of word processing and how to send an email?

HeadlessChicken · 26 Nov 2011 at 07:09

Love the way things like programming are considered essential, yet skills such as cooking / woodwork are hardly taught at all these days

Ceryndrion · 26 Nov 2011 at 08:17

well, cooking I suppose suffers predominantly from the stigmata that it is a "girly" subject, along with various rules and regulations about food production, and of course, the requirement that students remember to bring with them the correct ingredients/equipment for lessons.

As for woodwork, well, I don't really see that much use for.

Narj · 26 Nov 2011 at 08:19

I think that it wouldn't hurt. We were taught some programming in primary school (LOGO and BASIC) but then we had absolutely fantastic teachers who taught us Chess, Cookery, Origami and allsorts.

I don't think that programming itself is necessarily the useful part, more the logical thought processes required.

gropingmantis · 26 Nov 2011 at 08:23

They should learn some basic programming (not BASIC programming that is useless) as computers are such an integral part of life these days and yet nobody knows how they work. Or at least teach some microprocessor fundamentals and some Assembly in science. You learn how a telephone works in Science (or at least I did) so why not learn how a computer works? Either that or teach them about how GPRS works

Agree with PianoBasher a bit that programming can teach you a new method of problem solving but it isn't really one that is ever relevant outside of programming.

When I as at school we had computing lessons from years 7-9 where we learned how to use Word, Excel, Powerpoint, Publisher and Access. The latter included learning some VB which has been very useful in later life for me even if I hate the language.

Narj · 26 Nov 2011 at 08:28

gropingmantis said:
They should learn some basic programming (not BASIC programming that is useless) as computers are such an integral part of life these days and yet nobody knows how they work. Or at least teach some microprocessor fundamentals and some Assembly in science. You learn how a telephone works in Science (or at least I did) so why not learn how a computer works?

Don't diss BASIC

I learned it back in the 80s! when it was useful - it's easy enough for a young kid to pick up and apply logic to. I wrote loads of cool stuff in BASIC as a kid on an Amstrad CPC

Perhaps something like Python would be a more appropriate starting point these days though.

Expecting a 10 year old kid to learn assembly is a bit much. But for secondary school, I reckon it'd be more useful in IT lessons than learning PowerPoint. :rolleyes:

Hotwired · 26 Nov 2011 at 08:30

Ceryndrion said:
Its strange, I could swear that the rudiments of programming were, or at least, they were when I was at school, though we mostly learnt Basic on BBC systems, then later on prolog and pascal..

Let me guess, computer science in schools these days consists of word processing and how to send an email?

How to use a keyboard and mouse, how to use the internet and office software,

S'about it.

Wasn't til A level that any courses with programming turned up for me and even than it was a fairly minor part of the course.

gropingmantis · 26 Nov 2011 at 08:36

PianoBasher said:
Don't diss BASIC I learned it back in the 80s! when it was useful - it's easy enough for a young kid to pick up and apply logic to. I wrote loads of cool stuff in BASIC as a kid on an Amstrad CPC Perhaps something like Python would be a more appropriate starting point these days though.

Expecting a 10 year old kid to learn assembly is a bit much. But for secondary school, I reckon it'd be more useful in IT lessons than learning PowerPoint.

Ah thought we were talking about Secondary. In science lessons at GCSE level I do not think it is unreasonable to teach a small simple Assembly program it teaches you a lot about how a computer works at a low level. It certainly teaches you more than looking at flow charts of buses and registers.

Selekt0r · 26 Nov 2011 at 08:39

Rich_L said:
Nah, just teach kids how to outsource to India/China effectively, seems a shame to waste time doing menial programming when you can be focusing on high concept stuff and get grunts earning $0.50 an hour to do all the code-crunching for you.

If you've never programmed yourself then it's much more likely that any 'high concept stuff' (i.e. design) which you do will be utter tosh. If you are then oursourcing the coding to low-paid offshore then it's very unlikely that the coders will question/improve that poor design during the coding process, and the end-result is likely to be rubbish.

gropingmantis · 26 Nov 2011 at 08:43

I also agree with Aleksandrs to some degree that if kids are interested they could start to learn for themselves much younger. I did my first bits of BASIC and very very basic HTML when still at Primary school but that is because my dad gave me a PC and a load of his books and told me to have fun. Perhaps earlier on there should be something to let kids know that there is a thing called programming and it can be fun. I work with kids in a local school once a week playing with Lego Mindstorms and they have really taken to it and some of them have even started writing code outside of the regular flowchart program for the robots. These are Year 7 kids.

Destination · 26 Nov 2011 at 08:45

Idiots won't do maths, so they won't do nerdy programming.
The level of mathematical knowledge in the UK is disgraceful, and it is worn as a badge of honour by people in public life.
Once hat is sorted then we can have programming.

gropingmantis · 26 Nov 2011 at 09:01

Hikari Kisugi said:
Idiots won't do maths, so they won't do nerdy programming.
The level of mathematical knowledge in the UK is disgraceful, and it is worn as a badge of honour by people in public life.
Once hat is sorted then we can have programming.

First you need to sort maths teachers who seem to have the same attitude as the kids. I hated maths for years as all my teachers were boring and uninspiring then at GCSE I was put into a "special" maths class for those who need extra help and the teacher was great I ended up with an A at GCSE and went on to do A-level and got a B with the same teacher. If there were teachers like him all the way through the system I think a lot more people would enjoy maths. I really enjoy maths now after going through uni as I can see how useful it is and it presents everyday challenges but at school there is a lot less of the real world application of maths (once you get passed the division of sweets etc).

Narj · 26 Nov 2011 at 09:05

gropingmantis said:
Ah thought we were talking about Secondary. In science lessons at GCSE level I do not think it is unreasonable to teach a small simple Assembly program it teaches you a lot about how a computer works at a low level. It certainly teaches you more than looking at flow charts of buses and registers.

Shamefully this might agree with the maths post above; I never became a programmer off the back of what I learnt. My maths really isn't good enough (struggled through Maths for Engineering at college).

However, what I did learn means I've been able to quickly pick up shell scripting and a few other languages/tools that make my job tonnes easier.

I'd also argue that the applied logic experience has helped me pick up quite a few other things much more easily.

drunkenmaster · 26 Nov 2011 at 09:38

Blame your parents OP, also you don't need to learn programming, you need to LEARN, full stop. Its not to do with how kids process data exactly, well it is to a degree, its the fact that for all intents and purposes you can think of a child's brain as programmable. The brain is to a degree, soft wired, and as a kid the way you learn, the way you think, the more you learn, it changes the way your brain hard wires itself for the future.

Its been proven many many times over that kids can pick up new languages(spoken ones for now

) hugely quicker than adults and will remember them better.

I would expect a kid who learns programming to have a better chance of being really good at it, but then, they'd also have been potentially programming for a decade longer than someone who starts at 20yr olds. I'd expect for two adults who both started to learn something at 20 yrs old, for the 50 yr old to know more than the average 40 yr old, etc, etc.

Education is VERY incorrectly, at least here and most of the more lazy countries(western pretty much) thought of as, school, nothing more or less. You should be teaching your kids YOURSELF. A school can teach your kid to read at 5, or you can teach them to read at 4, a school can teach your kid the times tables, or you can , earlier, etc, etc.

A kid needs stimulus, a parent who takes an active part in their kids education will end up with a smarter, better able kid. School is becoming teaching the bare minimum and troubled kids end up screwed, parents can teach their kids to any level they want, and at the very least make sure they are ahead of the curve and never end up left behind.

Far too many parents think its someone else's responsibility.

Personally I don't think its a requirement for schools, nor parents to teach programming, but it should be encouraged if the kid is interested. Parents especially should make sure their kids have incredibly good fundamental maths knowledge though, and English/chem/bio/physics, the real core subjects are things that having a great grounding in, will make just about anything else easier to learn.