Programming should be part of the school syllabus

NathanE · 28 Nov 2011 at 10:27

That your CompSci friends are less successful just says they've ****ed up, have no passion or drive, and/or live somewhere where there is no work and are too stubborn to move.

AberystwythLAD · 28 Nov 2011 at 10:27

Basher said:
Unfortunately complete rubbish. Most computing courses will cover programming, Assembler, OS's algorithms etc.

Nonsense. Most IT degree, which he mentioned, do not cover anything of the sort. IT degrees are regarded, mainly in the sector, as mickey mouse degrees and they're not respected. They cover things like databases and so forth. Some do delve into the design side of software development, a few even into the code, most DO NOT!

Your employability post graduation (which, is the most important bit, right), will rely upon your ability to apply all of that to something useful.

Agreed on that point. However, Computer Science is more respected than IT, thats a fact across the world.

My experience so far has shown that CompSci grads are no more respected than computing grads. It's up to each of you to prove your worth to your prospective employers, and with that attitude, you're already behind.

I think you've failed to actually read the post properly and missing the argument.

I stated, programming is a part of computing which is true.

Computer Science/Computing degrees, basically the same with a different name, teach you far more in depth stuff than an IT course ever will. Anyone who thinks otherwise is completely deluded.

Computer Science == Computing.

Computer Science/Computing != IT

FACT!

So again, alert me to why you suddenly defended computing degrees? Im studying a computer science/computing degree, I really don't think you've thought through what you've said. Anyone who thinks comp sci/computing is equivalent to IT isn't worth my time, if thats your argument.

AberystwythLAD · 28 Nov 2011 at 10:28

Basher said:
I went to an ex-poly so have never considered my course a true CompSci course like I would have got at red-bricks.

Equally, I've never really considered it an ICT course.

Computing is another name for a Computer Science course. They cover the same aspects.

IT is top level stuff, and doesn't go deep enough to be well respected, hence why its been branded a mickey mouse degree.

Lunawolfy · 28 Nov 2011 at 10:31

I realise I've joined this topic somewhat late, but I was taught programming in school, P-Basic for micro-controllers in Tech Studies And Visual Basic/Prolog in Computing. And that wasnt' even 6th year studies!

AberystwythLAD · 28 Nov 2011 at 10:32

Basher said:
For reference, I didn't get low grades.

For me, it's all about employability and earning potential. I took Computing as I believed it would make me more employable, given the range of things that would be covered.

For me, it worked. I am earning significantly more than any one of my friends that went the CompSci route.

I realise that this will not be the case for all, but saying that an IT qualification is not respected is rubbish. How many graduate recruitment days have you ran? How many people have you personally employed?

You basically studied computer science with a different name then.

IT qualifications are not well respected, thats a fact!

You're saying you earn more than your friends who went the comp sci route yet your degree is computer science with a different name. The fact you have done better than them isn't down to the degree as they're theoretically the same degree (obviously, depending on the uni) but most likely down to the attitude towards work you have and their attitudes. You were probably more committed, worked harder, did more things outside of class to make yourself known and so forth. A piece of paper will only go so far, you have to do the rest and sell yourself to a potential employer. Maybe they just didn't do that well when it came to applying for the big boys in the sector.

Nitefly · 28 Nov 2011 at 10:32

AberystwythLAD said:
like RE, media studies, etc etc? french? for people who never plan on leaving the country? or have an interest in French? yet so many people here use computers and it would be of great interest to them to know more in depth stuff about how they work.

Errr, that's exactly why it should be optional - they can take it if they have an interest in it.

Personally I think RE and media studies have been more practically useful for me than programming ever could. And programming more important than languages???!

Basher · 28 Nov 2011 at 10:34

AberystwythLAD said:
So again, alert me to why you suddenly defended computing degrees? Im studying a computer science/computing degree, I really don't think you've thought through what you've said. Anyone who thinks comp sci/computing is equivalent to IT isn't worth my time, if thats your argument.

That's not my argument. Please refer to my previous post.

I thought you were putting Computing degrees in the same bracket as IT degrees hence my arguments. It turns out we're arguing the same side

AberystwythLAD · 28 Nov 2011 at 10:37

Basher said:
That's not my argument. Please refer to my previous post.

I thought you were putting Computing degrees in the same bracket as IT degrees hence my arguments. It turns out we're arguing the same side

Okay, thats okay

Yeah, your computing degree is basically equivalent to your friends computer science degree and most companies in the sector will see it that way. You can therefore go for any job they can. The fact you're earning more money than they are brings to light that you've either had more luck than them or you've worked harder than them to force your way into a high position in the sector. Only you know the truth, its most likely, as in a lot of cases, a mixture of both.

Basher · 28 Nov 2011 at 10:38

AberystwythLAD said:
Okay, thats okay

Yeah, your computing degree is basically equivalent to your friends computer science degree and most companies in the sector will see it that way. You can therefore go for any job they can. The fact you're earning more money than they are brings to light that you've either had more luck than them or you've worked harder than them to force your way into a high position in the sector. Only you know the truth, its most likely, as in a lot of cases, a mixture of both.

AberystwythLAD said:
Only you know the truth, its most likely, as in a lot of cases, a mixture of both.

Indeed it is.

NathanE · 28 Nov 2011 at 10:41

I think he is being self-concious over the fact it's from an "ex-poly" and that his friends CompSci's are from "red bricks".

Frankly, unless your degree is from a top 10 uni. then nobody gives a ****. An employer really cannot tell the difference between say a degree from Leeds vs Newcastle vs Exeter. They really can't.

And the reason some uni's call them "Computing" degrees rather than label them a "science" is because they're run by pedantic academics that are still arguing over whether or not CompSci is really a true science. Just ignore them. If it bothers you that much, just write CompSci on your CV.

Burnsy2023 · 28 Nov 2011 at 10:53

bhavv said:
What??? EA Games only hire programmers with 'Computer Science' for starters. They wont even read your application if you did an IT course.

Well, that's BS. I know someone with an IT degree that worked for EA for a bit.

qqg3 · 28 Nov 2011 at 11:24

Alright, lets ignore the computing vs compsci argument, jeez.

BBC article, code is the new latin, is something I agree with. Even if people don't see a need for this now, it will most likely eventually become a need because of tech growth etc.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-15916677 (same article that got lost in the last page).

Here is todays gov response to the whole argument about boosting computer education;
http://www.culture.gov.uk/news/media_releases/8647.aspx

This part stood out for me;

The key themes of Next Gen resonate far beyond video games and VFX: many of the skills demanded by these employers are equally desired in the much wider economy, from the digital and creative economy of business software, telecoms and social media to the cutting edge of engineering and design.

...this is not a niche subject, it is applicable in many many areas of businesses today.

bitslice · 28 Nov 2011 at 12:26

There are hardly any female programmers (even though they tend to be pretty good at maths). So is this course going to be universal?
Will there not be a feeling from the girls that they don't want to do programming so this course is wasting their time.

Something more generic like the application of modelling to a system is applicable to computers and to business work processes.

RDM · 28 Nov 2011 at 12:29

bhavv said:
What??? EA Games only hire programmers with 'Computer Science' for starters. They wont even read your application if you did an IT course.

They will also look at maths graduates too. For games development a maths or art degree would be more useful than a CompSci degree.

NathanE · 28 Nov 2011 at 12:32

RDM said:
They will also look at maths graduates too. For games development a maths or art degree would be more useful than a CompSci degree.

Oh joy. More rubbish being spouted.

AberystwythLAD · 28 Nov 2011 at 12:35

Of course computing is a science. A lot of it is built on the foundations of maths and physics.

NathanE · 28 Nov 2011 at 12:41

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinio...-part-of-our-childrens-education-6268915.html

The Prime Minister was obviously listening. Talking this month at east London's Tech City, David Cameron said, "I think Eric Schmidt is right ... we're not doing enough to teach the next generation of programmers."

It took him some months to admit it. But at least he finally has.

RDM · 28 Nov 2011 at 12:44

NathanE said:
Oh joy. More rubbish being spouted.

It was initially spouted by the Ex head of EA UK recruitment Matthew Jeffrey. But then what would he know about recruiting for EA?

Though to be fair a CompSci degree will be worth more than a Games Design degree in general (unless from the likes of Abertay etc).

NathanE · 28 Nov 2011 at 13:12

Are you sure you haven't misquoted him?

http://uk.gamespot.com/news/ea-recruiter-game-degrees-like-a-fashion-accessory-6175667

However, Jeffery also stated that EA prefers graduates who have completed more traditional courses such as maths, physics and computer science over those with more specialised game-related degrees.

"People looking at games courses… [should] consider what else you might be able to do if you can't get into the industry, where else you can go... somebody studying computer science, maths, or physics and then coming into a programming role, means that they can then go off into a number of different industries and be successful."

- Matthew Jeffrey (Head of Global Talent Brand at EA)

Basically he is saying anyone that hasn't got either Math, Physics or CompSci degree isn't really the right material for games development. And he is right. The best game developers have an interest in all three (not necessarily a degree in each of them!!!) But there are always exceptions to the rule. Just look at John Carmack. No degrees at all, but is the programmer of such games as Doom and Quake and is a rocket scientist. He stated recently in an interview that his game engines only contain math as complicated as he was taught in school.

Judgeneo · 28 Nov 2011 at 13:22

I wish this was around when I was still in school.

I got into HTML in primary school,but didn't see any incentive to learn any further languages. Now at uni, and learning programming here as extra modules, and currently applying to software dev jobs.
Being able to learn a coding language in school would have been fantastic.