Sometimes I'm ashamed to be British...

OLDSKOOL · 30 Nov 2011 at 11:57

dirtydog said:
No. But how long before the Thought Police catch up with her too :/

Zip it keyboard warrior!

Cleeecooo · 30 Nov 2011 at 12:00

no need to resort to name calling oldskool :rolleyes:

It's on the same page FFS!

Conversely, if you disagree with those who dislike immigration, don't descend into name calling and keep your counter argument rational as well.

Burnsy2023 · 30 Nov 2011 at 12:01

OLDSKOOL said:
snip

Von Smaulhausen said:
Folks, this thread was locked for a while so wecould prune it as necessary. Some of the comments were out of order but at the end of it, I have to come down on the side of debate and it has been reopened.

Please knock the snide comments on the head. We appreciate that immigration threads always evoke emotion and anger but if you disagree then be rational in your reasons and don't descend into name calling and inappropriate comments. Conversely, if you disagree with those who dislike immigration, don't descend into name calling and keep your counter argument rational as well.

We much prefer good and structured debate rather than pruning, infractions and suspensions.

dirtydog · 30 Nov 2011 at 12:03

Interestingly even the Guardian had a fairly sensible article on the Tram woman yesterday, the general gist of which I agree with.

I hate to write an article defending such a woman but I think calling for her to be arrested and then prosecuted is over the top. I don't think such behaviour is acceptable or have a problem with condemning it. My issue is that calling for the law to get involved is about the worst way to deal with such incidents. And there are several reasons for this.

First, the law has little impact. The Race Relations Act made it illegal for organisations to discriminate but you can count the number of successful prosecutions on your fingers. It works much better in tightly defined instances of outright discrimination rather than hate speech.

What actually changed attitudes against racism was a shift in popular culture pushed by brave people. The people who joined together in solidarity against skinheads (at Cable Street in the 30s and Southall in the 80s) changed attitudes. Rock Against Racism shifted popular attitudes. Love Music Hate Racism changed attitudes. The Anti-Nazi League did. But trying to push for better social attitudes through the law is a futile task. Popular condemnation and viral ****-takes work far better instead.

Second, you may argue she can already be prosecuted under the Public Order Act or a "breach of the peace" but the law is currently an overbearing ass. It allows the police to make an arrest if someone feels "insulted". The same laws allow them to detain political activists and make arbitrary arrests.

In short, the very law that some people are cheering here can easily be used against them. Do you really want to give police the willingness to arrest people simply for having an argument?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/nov/29/my-tram-experience-croydon

deSade · 30 Nov 2011 at 12:07

Cleeecooo said:
no need to resort to name calling oldskool

It's on the same page FFS!

I agree with this.

One thing I find amusing (depressing), is that a lot of the people on here who feel this woman's done nothing wrong would be up in arms if it was someone from a 'minority', saying the same thing about your precious British white people!

dirtydog · 30 Nov 2011 at 12:09

deSade said:
I agree with this.

One thing I find amusing (depressing), is that a lot of the people on here who feel this woman's done nothing wrong would be up in arms if it was someone from a 'minority', saying the same thing about your precious British white people!

Yes but not if they did it in their own country which whites had colonised.

How do you think black Africans on a train in Africa for example would feel, if they were one of the few blacks on the train, and everyone else was white and Asian and spoke in foreign languages?

I suggest to you that they wouldn't like it, and they might speak up about it, and being that it would be in their own country, they would have every right to do so.

elmarko · 30 Nov 2011 at 12:09

dirtydog said:
Our 'society' has become politically correct to the point of absurdity. To the point where foreigners have more rights than the racists. To the point where immigrants have all the rights and we racists dare not speak up for fear of being called racist.

Fixed.

Ahleckz · 30 Nov 2011 at 12:11

dirtydog said:
Interestingly even the Guardian had a fairly sensible article on the Tram woman yesterday, the general gist of which I agree with.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/nov/29/my-tram-experience-croydon

There's a difference between an argument, and what she was saying. I have no probelms with people having these views, and I have argued on these very forums that the right to free speech ought to be protected at all costs. For that, I've been called a racist, a nazi, a bigot, a terrorist, as well as some more unsavoury names. I am none of these.
However, there is a time and a place and a way in which to frame your argument and views. The way this woman did it was not acceptable in the slightest and she needs to be taught this. Ultimately, I think the best way to do this is through the justice system.

Cleeecooo · 30 Nov 2011 at 12:12

dirtydog said:
Interestingly even the Guardian had a fairly sensible article on the Tram woman yesterday, the general gist of which I agree with.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/nov/29/my-tram-experience-croydon

I also agree with most of it, but she should've been arrested because she didn't simply insult people or have an argument, she was racist and obnoxious.

Do you really want to give police the willingness to arrest people simply for having an argument?

Not only that, but she was inciting hatred, she's an unfit mother and, whilst some people are over sensitive, this clearly wasn't the case. It's not like she was simply making a racist/sexist joke.

deSade · 30 Nov 2011 at 12:13

dirtydog said:
Yes but not if they did it in their own country which whites had colonised.

How do you think black Africans on a train in Africa for example would feel, if they were one of the few blacks on the train, and everyone else was white and Asian and spoke in foreign languages?

I suggest to you that they wouldn't like it, and they might speak up about it, and being that it would be in their own country, they would have every right to do so.

You are forgetting the possibilty that a number of people who have had this vitriol spat at them may well also be British citizens. If you take this into account & still feel the same way, then you may well be commenting more on the colour of peoples skin.

Cleeecooo · 30 Nov 2011 at 12:15

dirtydog said:
Yes but not if they did it in their own country which whites had colonised.

How do you think black Africans on a train in Africa for example would feel, if they were one of the few blacks on the train, and everyone else was white and Asian and spoke in foreign languages?

I suggest to you that they wouldn't like it, and they might speak up about it, and being that it would be in their own country, they would have every right to do so.

They would still be wrong to do it and i'd say exactly the same thing.
we live in a world which is multicultural and people simply need to accept that there are other races and we should tolerate them and treat them the same as people of our own race, whatever that may be.

Ahleckz said:
There's a difference between an argument, and what she was saying. I have no probelms with people having these views, and I have argued on these very forums that the right to free speech ought to be protected at all costs. For that, I've been called a racist, a nazi, a bigot, a terrorist, as well as some more unsavoury names. I am none of these.
However, there is a time and a place and a way in which to frame your argument and views. The way this woman did it was not acceptable in the slightest and she needs to be taught this. Ultimately, I think the best way to do this is through the justice system.

+1

Burnsy2023 · 30 Nov 2011 at 12:15

dirtydog said:
Interestingly even the Guardian had a fairly sensible article on the Tram woman yesterday, the general gist of which I agree with.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/nov/29/my-tram-experience-croydon

I'm not sure what she was actually charged with but s.4a or s.18 POA seem most applicable. In which case you are only committing an offence if your actions cause alarm, harassment or distress (4a) or you intend to stir up racial hatred or your actions are likely to stir up racial hatred. Having an argument is one thing, doing the above is a bit different.

Also, I had a phrase which went something like the following: "Everyone is entitled to my opinion". I stopped saying this when a friend retorted "Yes, but not everyone deserves it".

She can have ignorant views, but that doesn't mean she has a right to proclaim them in a situation where it will obviously offend others.

dirtydog · 30 Nov 2011 at 12:16

deSade said:
You are forgetting the possibilty that a number of people who have had this vitriol spat at them may well also be British citizens. If you take this into account & still feel the same way, then you may well be commenting more on the colour of peoples skin.

What she said was correct though wasn't it?

If I go to live in Africa, do I suddenly become African?

So how are foreigners who come here and get our citizenship, really British in any sense other than name?

titaniumx3 · 30 Nov 2011 at 12:17

She should be ignored and banned from using the tram. If the internet has taught me anything, it is that you should never feed a troll.

dirtydog · 30 Nov 2011 at 12:17

Burnsy2023 said:
I'm not sure what she was actually charged with but s.4a or s.18 POA seem most applicable. In which case you are only committing an offence if your actions cause alarm, harassment or distress (4a) or you intend to stir up racial hatred or your actions are likely to stir up racial hatred. Having an argument is one thing, doing the above is a bit different.

Also, I had a phrase which went something like the following: "Everyone is entitled to my opinion". I stopped saying this when a friend retorted "Yes, but not everyone deserves it".

She can have ignorant views, but that doesn't mean she has a right to proclaim them in a situation where it will obviously offend others.

Should it be mandatory under the law that everyone has a RIGHT to NOT be offended? Because surely anything one says about anything, has the potential to offend. I might be sitting on a train and remark that I don't support the strikes today. That would undoubtedly offend some people. Should I be arrested, or told by the authorities to keep my mouth shut?

Burnsy2023 · 30 Nov 2011 at 12:19

dirtydog said:
So how are foreigners who come here and get our citizenship, really British in any sense other than name?

IMO, being British is about culture, not about race or appearance.

I doubt anyone here who has met me would suggest I was anything other than British, but as I don't have a British Passport, using your logic I'm just as much as a foreigner as Tiger Woods. Life and people's identity isn't as simple as that.

deSade · 30 Nov 2011 at 12:20

dirtydog said:
What she said was correct though wasn't it?

No

If I go to live in Africa, do I suddenly become African?

If you become a citizen, then yes you do.

So how are foreigners who come here and get our citizenship, really British in any sense other than name?

Yes they are, by law for one thing!

Cleeecooo · 30 Nov 2011 at 12:20

dirtydog said:
What she said was correct though wasn't it?

If I go to live in Africa, do I suddenly become African?
not suddenly

So how are foreigners who come here and get our citizenship, really British in any sense other than name?

I come from India and i'm British. I was educated in Britain, and the only thing that really makes me indian is my god awful accent. (brits think it's indian,indians think it's british :rolleyes:

) Oh yeah, and my skin colour.

So what DD, in your opinion, makes me more Indian than British?

Cleeecooo · 30 Nov 2011 at 12:21

dirtydog said:
What she said was correct though wasn't it?

If I go to live in Africa, do I suddenly become African?

So how are foreigners who come here and get our citizenship, really British in any sense other than name?

dirtydog said:
Should it be mandatory under the law that everyone has a RIGHT to NOT be offended? Because surely anything one says about anything, has the potential to offend. I might be sitting on a train and remark that I don't support the strikes today. That would undoubtedly offend some people. Should I be arrested, or told by the authorities to keep my mouth shut?

depends how you say it

If like that woman on the tram, then yes. If it's like you're speaking on here, then speak away!

elmarko · 30 Nov 2011 at 12:30

Castiel said:
Which simply means your opinion doesn't hold much weight.

People like her do not make be ashamed of being British....I just find it sad that people like you have a twisted idea of what being British actually means and are seeking to undermine what generations of people have fought for, both in action and in words, in some vain attempt to redefine what it means to be British to suit your limited and irrational ideology.

I would say it is you and your ilk that are the traitors, for attempting to subsume your ideology as being British in any which way, shape or form.

This pretty much.

It takes little time to look at the history of the UK, to really appreciate how as a nation we have always been a mix of various invaders, visitors or immigrants, the only reason it's less obvious is because our mix was mostly from Europe (viking/roman etc).