Euro talks, what are the implications?

hola_adios · 9 Dec 2011 at 18:59

Athanor said:
It'd be interesting to see the UK start talks on joining the USA/Canada Free Trade Area. Arguably we have more in common and stronger ties with them than mainland Europe, the only difference is a slightly larger piece of water in between us.

Just read the papers of the last 30 years, the first ones who do not want the UK there are the US ... setting pragmatic and logistic reasons aside, there is very little we would benefit from belonging to such group.

Orcish-Horde · 9 Dec 2011 at 19:04

lunarwolf said:
try over 500 million people. also Ireland is in the Euro zone and have been bailed out in the past, somehow i doubt they would leave Europe to join up with UK, when all UK does is bitch when it has to pay, yet it contributes less than Germany, France and Italy, yet they don't bitch nearly as much

They don't need to leave, its not as if they are going to close their border to us. If the Euro sinks they will link their punt to the pound along with free trade.

RDM · 9 Dec 2011 at 19:08

lunarwolf said:
try 4th.

Whilst we are the 4th largest contributor if you look at net contributions we end up 2nd or 3rd depending on how you work out the figures.

lunarwolf said:
Many EU leaders are upset with Cameron, esp the way he did it. Says he supports a strong Euro and acknowledges it's importance to UK market yet does nothing to support. you can't have have it all. the double life is not sustainable, and a choice has been made - not definitive yet, but it will in the long run as Europe gets even more integrated, then the UK will be out on it's own, like Turkey

So he should have instead signed away sovereign financial rights and taken a massive hit to one of the largest contributors of GDP to the UK economy just to stay in with the club? Forgive me if I disagree. The UK was between a rock and a hard place in this one and I think that Cameron has taken the best of two pretty bad options.

lunarwolf said:
wasn't UK that only paid, it was Europe

Regardless the UK also gave a significant loan outside of its EU commitments.

lunarwolf · 9 Dec 2011 at 19:09

Orcish-Horde said:
If the Euro sinks they will link their punt to the pound along with free trade.

keep dreaming.

UK is 4th largest economy in Europe, there is no way that would happen. stop being delusional. also the Euro won't sink, it may get devalued, but will bounce back as this blows over and Greece won't be able to run up bills they can't afford in the future

hola_adios · 9 Dec 2011 at 19:11

The problem is not what has been done or said, it is the how. Cameron has shown little diplomatic and political skills with his choice of words.

lunarwolf · 9 Dec 2011 at 19:14

RDM said:
Whilst we are the 4th largest contributor if you look at net contributions we end up 2nd or 3rd depending on how you work out the figures.

So he should have instead signed away sovereign financial rights and taken a massive hit to one of the largest contributors of GDP to the UK economy just to stay in with the club? Forgive me if I disagree. The UK was between a rock and a hard place in this one and I think that Cameron has taken the best of two pretty bad options.

Regardless the UK also gave a significant loan outside of its EU commitments.

4th contributor @103 billion Euros. full stop. you can try to view it any way you want. i could use 6th as a net benfit per capita argument also

he wouldn't have signed away any sovereign rights since the UK is using sterling and not the Euro. only thing he would have done was agree with tax on financial transactions, which would be the same for all EU countries. if you think 10% financial services is more important than 40% trading partner then you can disagree all you want

RDM · 9 Dec 2011 at 19:15

hola_adios said:
The problem is not what has been done or said, it is the how. Cameron has shown little diplomatic and political skills with his choice of words.

You have to remember that all politics are local politics. Cameron's message is not for the rest of the EU it is for his home audience, goes down well with the back benchers and the Telegraph/Express/Mail readers. Much like Sarkozy's statements were not for the rest of the EU but for his home audience. A bit of Brit bashing is what they want to hear. Whilst I am sure there is some annoyance at high levels for the UKs actions I doubt many of the people that matter will be paying much attention to the various press pantomimes going on about it.

PlacidCasual · 9 Dec 2011 at 19:22

Only Germany definitely has a larger economy than the UK. The UK and France are toe and toe. Per capita we're the 7th largest contributor, the Swedes, Dutch, Danes and Belgians all get a really raw deal. I can't see why Denmark would possibly want to join the Euro which I assume is a requirement of the new treaty.

RDM · 9 Dec 2011 at 19:25

lunarwolf said:
4th contributor. full stop. you can try to view it any way you want

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budget_of_the_European_Union

2nd Net Contributor by that valuation.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8036097.stm#start

2nd Net Contributor by that valuation.

View that any way you like. Much like your information on the Irish bailout you seem to be somewhat mistaken.

lunarwolf said:
he wouldn't have signed away any sovereign rights since the UK is using sterling and not the Euro. only thing he would have done was agree with tax on financial transactions, which would be the same for all EU countries. if you think 10% financial services is more important than 40% trading partner then you can disagree all you want

You do realise that taxation and regulation is a sovereign right? Also that taxation would have disproportionately impacted the UK. Do you honestly think that this decision will mean that the UK will no longer have access to European markets? Germany is going to happily say goodbye to 6.6% of its exports? France is going to happily say goodbye to 6.8% of it's exports?

No doubt it will change the way Europe does business but it is certainly not in the EUs interests to have the UK leave, nor is it in the individual nations interests either.

lunarwolf · 9 Dec 2011 at 19:26

PlacidCasual said:
Only Germany definitely has a larger economy than the UK. The UK and France are toe and toe. .

lol check your figures. even Italy has a higher GDP. stop living in the past. the British empire is no more.

lunarwolf · 9 Dec 2011 at 19:28

RDM said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budget_of_the_European_Union.

and 6th net benfit per capita :rolleyes:

. it doesn't change they are 4th contributor

if you think UK will be better off negotiating with China, etc... on its own but rather than as part of a more powerful EU then good luck with that. also as Europe moves ever closer to a "United Europe", who is to say the terms of the free trade agreement won't be revised?

RDM · 9 Dec 2011 at 19:31

lunarwolf said:
and 6th net benfit per capita . it doesn't change they are 4th contributor

I was specifically using NET contributor, but frankly it makes no difference to the position. The last thing the EU needs at the moment is to lose even more money by expelling one of it's major (is that vague enough for you?) contributors.

RDM · 9 Dec 2011 at 19:33

lunarwolf said:
lol check your figures. even Italy has a higher GDP. stop living in the past. the British empire is no more.

The CIA says you are wrong...

https://www.cia.gov/library/publica...ngdom&countryCode=uk&regionCode=eur&rank=8#uk

Bear · 9 Dec 2011 at 19:37

lunarwolf said:
lol check your figures. even Italy has a higher GDP. stop living in the past. the British empire is no more.

Perhaps you should give us a link to show that you are correct as most links Ive looked at shows Italy behind the UK. Italy is ahead of the UK in the eurozone as we arent in the euro. My guess is that you have heard that Italy is the third biggest economy in the eurozone and failed to understand what was being said

The reason the French wanted to force the transaction tax is because it would effect us the most whilst it would barely effect them. Why wouldnt they want that.

lunarwolf · 9 Dec 2011 at 19:43

RDM said:
The CIA says you are wrong...

https://www.cia.gov/library/publica...ngdom&countryCode=uk&regionCode=eur&rank=8#uk

oops you are right. thought Italy had inched it's way in front. my mistake. apologies then RDM and PlacidCasual

however my other points stand

Biohazard · 9 Dec 2011 at 19:45

Perhaps the negative effects of the City need to be tamed?

scorza · 9 Dec 2011 at 19:48

Bear said:
The reason the French wanted to force the transaction tax is because it would effect us the most whilst it would barely effect them. Why wouldnt they want that.

The French will still get what they want, they'll just agree it with every other EU nation and force it on us by default. Europe is united, they aren't going to let an island in the periphery get away with a deregulated, casino banking operation that is going to cause real damage to economies in Europe.

Bear · 9 Dec 2011 at 19:55

scorza said:
The French will still get what they want, they'll just agree it with every other EU nation and force it on us by default. Europe is united, they aren't going to let an island in the periphery get away with a deregulated, casino banking operation that is going to cause real damage to economies in Europe.

The damage caused to the economies in Europe was caused by their governments overspending. Blaming the city for their profligacy is ridiculous.

Strife212 · 9 Dec 2011 at 19:58

scorza said:
The French will still get what they want, they'll just agree it with every other EU nation and force it on us by default. Europe is united, they aren't going to let an island in the periphery get away with a deregulated, casino banking operation that is going to cause real damage to economies in Europe.

You actually believe that? Their troubles are more to do with countries like Greece that are unbelievably in debt and have spent way beyond their means.

Biohazard · 9 Dec 2011 at 19:58

Bear said:
The damage caused to the economies in Europe was caused by their governments overspending. Blaming the city for their profligacy is ridiculous.

Blaming Government's for the crisis is equally as vacuous. Of course the financial centre of Europe had a hand to play.