The tolerant Catholic Church

[Hitman_Leon]

Castiel disagree with you, as I think does Tefal, so try telling that to them.

Again, you haven't really explained why two adult siblings lets say aged 29 and 30, cannot marry each other if they both consented. What reason would you give them?

I think what you are missing is context, as mentioned in previous posts there is a question of family members having never known each other. It cannot ever be said that any kind of relationship could be right between them. The way they interact however even after some of them know of a family connection is a really strange area.

Because they have not known each other as family members they find attraction where one should not exist due to social conditioning and general moral understanding of how family members behave with one-another.

It can never be right but you have to see that context has a part to play in some situations.

 

[Castiel]

My "uuggh" being childish.

Given the discussed situation and being morally ambiguous towards said situation, i would consider that as lacking of morals, considering its so clear cut.

Then we see things differently, as my morals do not dictate my objectivity, you, and e36Adz to some degree, are dictating that the moral issue is with the sexual act itself rather than the psychological and the relationship between the two family members being abused.

Like I said there are significant issues with incestuous relationships, but morally I do not think that the most important is the actual act of intercourse, but the psychological issues that lead up to that....especially with regard to Parents and Children and between Dominant and Submissive Siblings....we can't legislate or prejudge based on specifics we may not actually have access to, it is incredibly difficult to assess the difference between abuse of position and consent at the best of times, so we can only legislate using broad criteria...thus the Catholic Church in the 12th Century began to indoctrinate that incestuous relationships with a fourth degree of relationship were frowned upon and this has become the basis of a generally accepted western Cultural taboo.

 

[Castiel]

This debate has gotten off topic, to what was being discussed earlier anyways.

It has gone down this path since you stated



thats why brotherly incest was bought into the picture.

Actually you bought incest into the picture as the context in which my comment was framed was clearly related to homosexual couples. So it was not me that took it down a path relating to incest, it was in fact you. In some attempt to sidestep the question and to try to show that I was somehow holding conflicting moral stances....which I have illustrated I am not. I simply see things in a more objective way that you.....

As I have been so kind to answer your questions on incest and how it impacts on my morality, maybe you can return the favour and answer the original question, remembering this time that is is framed in the context of the thread and that being about Homosexual Marriage?

 

[e36Adz]

Probably because it's not one of those things that hurt anybody.

This one again. So theres nothing wrong with two adult siblings marrying each other then?

e36Adz

Morally right for an adult man to marry a 13 year old?

I am not a scholar but I will do my best to answer.

As far as I am aware (and please someone correct me if I am wrong) within Islam there is no upper or lower age restriction in marriage, however, when men and women reach the age of puberty, they are encouraged to get married. There is no concept of turning 16 or 18 and suddenly (somehow magically) becoming an adult, therefore each case is different. Biologically, when a person (or an animal) is physically able to reproduce it is then regarded as an adult.

Secondly, as seen from here: (http://www.avert.org/age-of-consent.htm) we see that everyone has a differing opinion on the age of consent. Going by the link, Spain and South Korea (plus others) do NOT believe what you asked is morally wrong. If such countries tried to marry someone who hadn't even reached puberty, I would be against it.

In this society (in which I have also been raised), we have been given the ages of 16 and 18 in regards to someone becoming an adult and I understand the reasons for drawing a line somewhere in order to protect children, however, this protection should in my opinion come from the childrens parents or family. If someone wanted to get married for example at 15, I can not say it is wrong nor do I have any issue with it. It is against the law here therefore if someone wishes to live in this country they should abide by the law or leave.

I know what initiated the question, and it is a fair question but when looking at the marriage of our prophet PBUH to Aysha, look and study the life of Aysha and see what she had to say in regards to our prophet PBUH. Many many hadith are narrated by her.

 

[dodgem]

Why is it actually MORALLY WRONG for two people who love each other to get married?....

thats why brotherly incest was bought into the picture.

No, this is why brotherly incest was brought up, because you thought it would be a good argument...

I would love hear someone explain why it would be MORALLY WRONG for two brothers to marry and adopt children? Given that they LOVE each other and arent hurting anybody.

Tefal, castiel?

You countered Castiel's question about same sex, non-related, love with a question about same sex, related, love in an attempt to show that his question was invalid. When he countered with the position that his personal preference does not equal moral code, you claim that he is dragging the thread off course?...

 

[steve-h]

This one again. So theres nothing wrong with two adult siblings marrying each other then?

I've already answered that... but not as beautifully as Castiel just did:

Then we see things differently, as my morals do not dictate my objectivity, you, and e36Adz to some degree, are dictating that the moral issue is with the sexual act itself rather than the psychological and relationship between the two family members being abused.

Like I said there are significant issues with incestuous relationships, but morally I do not think that the most important is the actual act of intercourse, but the psychological issues that lead up to that....especially with regard to Parents and Children and between Dominant and Submissive Siblings....we can't legislate or prejudge based on specifics we may not actually have access to, it is incredibly difficult to assess the difference between abuse of position and consent at the best of times, so we can only legislate using broad criteria...thus the Catholic Church in the 12th Century began to indoctrinate that incestuous relationships with a fourth degree of relationship and this has become the basis of a generally accepted western Cultural taboo.

 

[[FnG]magnolia]

An observation : those posters defending the Catholic Church are doing a marvellous job of reinforcing any negative opinions mostly impartial people like myself may have had.

 

[Craterloads]

Actually you bought incest into the picture as the context in which my comment was framed was clearly related to homosexual couples. So it was not me that took it down a path relating to incest, it was in fact you. In some attempt to sidestep the question and to try to show that I was somehow holding conflicting moral stances....which I have illustrated I am not. I simply see things in a more objective way that you.....

As I have been so kind to answer your questions on incest and how it impacts on my morality, maybe you can return the favour and answer the original question, remembering this time that is is framed in the context of the thread and that being about Homosexual Marriage?

Your statement was sweeping, anyhow that has been proved wrong. Just because it doesn’t "hurt anyone" doesn’t make it right.

Personally i don’t think there is anything "morally" wrong with homosexuality. I don’t particularly like it, nor wish to see it, due to finding the act of homosexual intercourse/intimacy itself repulsive but that’s down to my own upbringing. I think gay couples deserve to be left alone and not be abused by bigots.

When you jumped into the debate today we were discussing whether the term "marriage" should be adopted over "civil partnership", to which i disagreed. It has gone off topic since.

 

[steve-h]

Just because it doesn’t "hurt anyone" doesn’t make it right.

What does then?

An observation : those posters defending the Catholic Church are doing a marvellous job of reinforcing any negative opinions mostly impartial people like myself may have had.

Aye... I'm surprised there's so many.

 

[Craterloads]

What does then?

huh?

 

[Craterloads]

delete

 

[Castiel]

Your statement was sweeping, anyhow that has been proved wrong. Just because it doesn’t "hurt anyone" doesn’t make it right.

Personally i don’t think there is anything "morally" wrong with homosexuality. I don’t particularly like it, nor wish to see it, due to finding the act of homosexual intercourse/intimacy itself repulsive but that’s down to my own upbringing. I think gay couples deserve to be left alone and not be abused by bigots.

When you jumped into the debate today we were discussing whether the term "marriage" should be adopted over "civil partnership", to which i disagreed. It has gone off topic since.

It hasn't been proven wrong and the question was clearly framed within the context of the thread.....

Also I never asked whether homosexuality was immoral, I asked why two people within the context of the discussion (i.e Homosexual) getting married is morally wrong....which is entirely pertinent to the thread topic and you have tried to avoid answering by inventing a largely irrelevent tangent whereby the thread was steered toward a discussion on incest...

So the question, in a more specific and narrow wording so there is no confusion.....Why is homosexual marriage morally wrong?

 

[steve-h]

huh?

Just because x doesn't hurt anybody it doesn't make it "right"!

Well what exactly is making it wrong?

why would two consenting adult brothers being in love be classed as "being abused"?

... They wouldn't be.

wow.

 

[Craterloads]

two family members being abused.

why would two consenting adult brothers being in love be classed as "being abused"?

between Dominant and Submissive Siblings

Arent there dominant and submissive partners in any relationship?

So the question, in a more specific and narrow wording so there is no confusion.....Why is homosexual marriage morally wrong?

Homosexual "civil partnerships" are fine. In my opinion marriage is for a man and a woman. I think there should be a clear distinction between the two.

 

[Castiel]

why would two consenting adult brothers being in love be classed as "being abused"?

I though you said this was irrelevant to the thread?

However, to answer the question, which was actually answered in the post you lifted the adlib from:

Then we see things differently, as my morals do not dictate my objectivity, you, and e36Adz to some degree, are dictating that the moral issue is with the sexual act itself rather than the psychological and the relationship between the two family members being abused.

Like I said there are significant issues with incestuous relationships, but morally I do not think that the most important is the actual act of intercourse, but the psychological issues that lead up to that....especially with regard to Parents and Children and between Dominant and Submissive Siblings....we can't legislate or prejudge based on specifics we may not actually have access to, it is incredibly difficult to assess the difference between abuse of position and consent at the best of times, so we can only legislate using broad criteria...thus the Catholic Church in the 12th Century began to indoctrinate that incestuous relationships with a fourth degree of relationship were frowned upon and this has become the basis of a generally accepted western Cultural taboo.

 

[Castiel]

Homosexual "civil partnerships" are fine. In my opinion marriage is for a man and a woman. I think there should be a clear distinction between the two.

You are not answering the question:

Why?

 

[dodgem]

So the question, in a more specific and narrow wording so there is no confusion.....Why is homosexual marriage morally wrong?

You need to be clearer... "Why is homosexual marriage between unrelated people morally wrong?

Clearly when you were talking about 2 men earlier it could have been perceived that you meant brothers also. Hang on.... am i missing something here? Has all this mention on heterosexual relationships included between a brother and sister as well???

 

[Castiel]

You need to be clearer... "Why is homosexual marriage between unrelated people morally wrong?

Clearly when you were talking about 2 men earlier it could have been perceived that you meant brothers also. Hang on.... am i missing something here? Has all this mention on heterosexual relationships included between a brother and sister as well???

 

[eddiemcgarrigle]

An observation : those posters defending the Catholic Church are doing a marvellous job of reinforcing any negative opinions mostly impartial people like myself may have had.

I am Catholic, I do not blindly follow the Church in all that the Cardinals say. I follow my own compass with the help of years of learning that the Catholic Church is not the monster that it is made out to be. There are thousands of good, honest priests, nuns and laymen out there doing a wonderful job of helping their communities.

Yes, there have been failings, high profile failings at that but show me one other faith or organisation that has not had similar problems. For the record, I am against abortion but have no problem about gay marriage. Live and let live.

I have a problem with your claim of being impartial. Impartial people are just that, impartial. They do not come into any debate with 'negative opinions' if they are impartial.

 

[Craterloads]

You are not answering the question:

Why?

Just have done, i never said homosexaulity is morally wrong did i? I CLEARLY was having a debate with romannose regarding the terms of "marriage" and "civil partnerships" lol

And again back to your first statement. Seems you forget quicky, you have been proven wrong on this as hard as it is for you to admit.

Why is it actually MORALLY WRONG for two people who love each other to get married?

hence why two consenting brothers in love was brought into the question.