God & Science Proved!

[Castiel]

No its definitely not. Not on this forum, and not commonly anywhere in the world. I wont even bother pointing out why not or giving you the correct definition on this one, because I know you are too stubborn to accept it.

There are a whole range of Creation Theories, some are scientific, some are religious, some are philosophical, some of the adherents are Theists, some are not.

One such Creation Theory is Theistic Evolution, where the concept is that God created the Material Universe and Evolution is a natural process within that material Universe, I have yet to come across anyone in this thread who commonly refers to Creationists who defines Creationism in this way...

Unless you are suggesting that Evolution explains the creation of the Universe?

I will remember next time that when you mention Creationism or Creationist that you believe they accept Evolution as they are Theistic Evolutionists, or Evolutionary Creationists....

I know what the real definition is, supported globally and academically in any such discussion on creationism, but I was asking you for yours because you never use real definitions of anything in your arguments.

Under the real definition of Creationism, just about every single Christian, and perhaps even Muslims judging by Muza's post would be classified as a Creationist.

Creationism is also not just limited to Christian belief, anyone of any religion can hold creationist beliefs.

You don't know half as much as you think you do. You have a very narrow and blinkered view of many things and for some reason cannot seem to understand the nuances and meanings attributed by context....it's a very black and white approach that means you lack the ability to be objective. Instead you get defensive and your hubris won't allow you to consider any point of view other than what you think you know to be true...even when it is demonstrably not........in this tegard you are the same as our friends Kedge and Cosmogenesis...only they limited their stubbonous to a single subject in the main....

I did not say it was limited to Christianity, neither did I state the academic definition, which would take up half the page and include various definitions across several religions, namely the Abrahamic ones and to a lesser extent Hinduism, Hinduism can also hold that the Gods did not Create the Universe as Brahman is a pantheist concept rather than a typically anthropomorphic God as in the Abrahamic Religions....again it would take half the night to explain fully and has no particular relevance to the thread or the context in which I used the term Creationist....

(remember that all three Abrahamic religions share the same source material in regard to their various interpretations of Genesis and therefore can be properly refered to as Biblical)

I gave the most common use of the term both generally and on this forum....as well you know. Now you can be obtuse and argumentative if you wish, try to feel superior if you wish, it will not change that fact that it was a perfectly acceptable use of the word and that not all theists can be regarded as Creationists.....For example, Jainists believe in Deities, but they don't believe they created the Universe, or that they are Creators themselves....

 

[bhavv]

I dont see how what you just quoted from me lead you to to assume that I said that Evolution explains the creation of the universe? Everything you just wrote in that post is 100% illogical and lacking in intelligence which I thought you have the most of out of anyone on this forum.

I didnt ask you for any 'creation theories' either, I asked you for a definition on creationism. Why dont you look it up, and either back up your definition with a source, or find out why you are wrong?

you can just read the flycover where is states it is a work of fiction to assertain the intent and opinion of the author of the work.

So if you simply add that to the bible, it becomes a work of fiction too.

 

[Castiel]

I dont see how what you just quoted from me lead you to to assume that I said that Evolution explains the creation of the universe? Everything you just wrote in that post is 100% illogical and lacking in intelligence which I thought you have the most of out of anyone on this forum.

I didnt ask you for any 'creation theories' either, I asked you for a definition on creationism. Why dont you look it up, and either back up your definition with a source, or find out why you are wrong?

Sure, you don't understand what is being stated so I must be stupid....

As I said I gave a 'commonly' used definition....whereby, and remember the original term 'Creationist' was coined specifically in reference to Christian Fundamentalist ideology that opposed Evolution in favour of Young Earth Creationism.....prior to that the general term was Anti-Evolutionist, anyway back to what I was saying...whereby the term creationist refers to someone who refutes Evolution in favour of a literal interpretation of Genesis, predominantly Christians, but also within Islam and Judaism....

In any case, I stated that your use of the word Theists rather than Creationists implies that all Theists are Creationists....which they are not....

The example I have given is Jainism, who believe in Gods, yet not in a Creator God and to some extent Hinduism when the belief is pantheist in nature when referring to Brahman.....as an ex-Hindu I thought you might realise this.

Buddhism also do not ascribe to a creator God, yet do believe in Deities or Gods......

I don't particularly want to get into a big ole bhavv fight over how I used the term Creationist.....especially when the point was that I disagreed with your implication that all theists believed in a creator God or Deity when not all Theist's do....I gave examples of the religions that do not.

Surely that makes sense to you and is acceptable to you....it is a reasonable position.

If you want a huge explanation of Creationism, it's history, it's various definitions and how they came about then it will have to wait, as it is past 1am in the morning.......the wiki page could get you started though.....

Creationism is the religious belief[1] that humanity, life, the Earth, and the universe are the creation of a supernatural being, most often referring to the Abrahamic God.

As I said, and I reiterate....Not all Theist's hold to Creationism.

So if you simply add that to the bible, it becomes a work of fiction too.

Find the authors and ask them to do so......


Anyway Bhavvy Boy, I am off to sleep.....have a good night whatever you are doing and sleep well.

 

[bhavv]

Ok first of all I never asked you anything about 'creationist theories', I asked you to define 'Creationism', on which you are 100% wrong.

Creationist theories are not really theories anyway, they are purely rubbish ideas not supported by any area of academia (well, other than in the USA perhaps).

I didnt even refer to all theists as Creationists not once in this thread, so again you are simply completely making things up which you seem to do constantly as a rather libelous attack against me.

A theist who denies evolution is not automatically a Creationist, I never stated that.

A theist who accepts Evolution may very well still be a Creationist, and in fact I will say with a certainty that 100% of Christians believe in Creationism.

As I said, and I reiterate....Not all Theist's hold to Creationism.

Very well done Castiel! That is correct and also something that I never said. You also finally found the correct definition of Creationism using your google fu to look it up on wikipedia well done, have a shiny star or a merit or something that will make you happy for your effort.

Now whenever you get back, please complete this test of fill in the blank:

People who believe that life, the earth and universe were created by a supernatural being are called ________.

If thats too hard for you, here are a selection of words for you to pick from to also make it a multiple choice:

Creationists, goats, fairies, lamposts, Justin Bieber.

 

[Castiel]

Ok first of all I never asked you anything about 'creationist theories', I asked you to define 'Creationism', on which you are 100% wrong.

it wasn't and isn't.....and in any case Creationist Theories define Creationism......

Creationist theories are not really theories anyway, they are purely rubbish ideas not supported by any area of academia (well, other than in the USA perhaps).

Theories are not all Scientific you know....I have a theory on your state of mind...it's a theory based on opinion, but it is still a theory.

I didnt even refer to all theists as Creationists not once in this thread, so again you are simply completely making things up which you seem to do constantly as a rather libelous attack against me.

That line is always used by theists as a counter to evolution

The implication is that all Theists counter Evolution ergo they are all Creationists....neither is true....one, not all Theists who believe in a Creator God(s) counter Evolution. Two, not all Theists believe in a Creation God(s) to begin with.....

A theist who denies evolution is not automatically a Creationist, I never stated that.

What is a Theist who denies Evolution?.....and what do they believe instead of Evolution?

A theist who accepts Evolution may very well still be a Creationist, and in fact I will say with a certainty that 100% of Christians believe in Creationism.

'May well be a creationist' is not what you implied originally.....as I said you made a sweeping statement that implied all theists opposed evolution and ergo they were all creationists.....

You coukd have simply clarified that was not your intent...instead you decide to go off on one.....

 

[bhavv]

I didn't clarify my intent on that monkey post because I wanted you to go mad, illogical, and stupidly judgemental as you always do.

I'm going to say it now and I don't care how many people disagree with me on this, you are not intelligent at all.

 

[Castiel]

Very well done Castiel! That is correct and also something that I never said. You also finally found the correct definition of Creationism using your google fu to look it up on wikipedia well done, have a shiny star or a merit or something that will make you happy for your effort.

It was the pretty much the same definition I gave before......I simply remained within the context of your statement.....

And yeah, you did say that all Theists were Creationist by implication....unless you can explain what a Theist who is opposed to Evolution believes in it's stead?

 

[Van Hellseek]

What is a Theist who denies Evolution?.....and what do they believe instead of Evolution?

Honestly, I would hope you're intelligent enough to understand that a person can deny theism but not necissarily believe in evolution.

It's actually making me mad to think that people can view things in such black and white terms.

Did time and the universe exist before you became aware of it? Do other people even exist outside your own sphere of perception? Heck you could even believe this existance was some kind of 'matrix'.

The point is there are EASILY other belief systems which can deny evolution but not necessarily the existance of some kind of god.

 

[bhavv]

I didn't mean to say that all thiests deny evolution either, again I purposefully didn't bother with editing in the word 'some' into that post once you started going off on your rant.

There are some atheists and scientists who don't believe in evolution as well, though I have no idea what they believe instead, I think you should be able to teach me that because you're the expert on this.

 

[Castiel]

I didn't clarify my intent on that monkey post because I wanted you to go mad, illogical, and stupidly judgemental as you always do.

I'm going to say it now and I don't care how many people disagree with me on this, you are not intelligent at all.

The problem with that is, as always the only person who has gone a little doo-lally is unfortunately yourself...I don't particularly know why.

Whether you judge me to be intelligent or not is immaterial and pointless rhetoric.

However, it does illustrate that I was not the one who resorted to personally attacks and name calling.....

 

[bhavv]

Honestly, I would hope you're intelligent enough to understand that a person can deny theism but not necissarily believe in evolution.

He isn't. And he is falling for my bait perfectly to prove that he isn't.

 

[Van Hellseek]

He isn't. And he is falling for my bait perfectly to prove that he isn't.

Actually I believe he is intelligent enough to understand, he's just not open minded enough to accept.


Although for the record, my own point was not related to any of yours directly.

 

[Castiel]

Honestly, I would hope you're intelligent enough to understand that a person can deny theism but not necissarily believe in evolution.

It's actually making me mad to think that people can view things in such black and white terms.

Did time and the universe exist before you became aware of it? Do other people even exist outside your own sphere of perception? Heck you could even believe this existance was some kind of 'matrix'.

The point is there are EASILY other belief systems which can deny evolution but not necessarily the existance of some kind of god.

We were specifically discussing Theists however as Bhavv was specific in that "Theists oppose Evolution".....so I don't see what point you are making....I did not state that non-Theists must accept Evolution....only asked the question as to what does a Theist who opposes evolution believe in it's stead?

So of course there are possible belief systems that do not accept Evolution and also do not believe in God(s)....Raelians springs to mind, who believe that we were created by ETs....

 

[Castiel]

He isn't. And he is falling for my bait perfectly to prove that he isn't.

Wriggle all you like......you made another misjudgement and sweeping statement, was caught out yet again and now you are trying to say you did it intentionally and are resorting to name calling to impose some form of authority.....

 

[bhavv]

Actually I believe he is intelligent enough to understand, he's just not open minded enough to accept.

Or that is completetly true. Everything he writes about atheism, creationism and evolution, plus his incredibly bad judgementation and constantly jumping to conclusions that have nothing to do with what was actually written and outright refusal to accept any valid source thatcompletely disagrees with anything he says .....

Most intelligent poster on OCUK my ###

 

[Castiel]

Actually I believe he is intelligent enough to understand, he's just not open minded enough to accept.


Although for the record, my own point was not related to any of yours directly.

I am about as open minded on such issues as you can get......including discussing metaphysics and alternatives to our existence.

There are plenty of threads where I have discussed this....including one I started with regard a personal experience which challenged my preconceptions of what existence and subjective consciousness is......

 

[bhavv]

Wriggle all you like......you made another misjudgement and sweeping statement, was caught out yet again and now you are trying to say you did it intentionally and are resorting to name calling to impose some form of authority.....

Everything I wrote on the previous page was intentional, I saw you starting to go mad and simply left you at it while asking further questions.

Seriously by any standard, the judgements and conclusions you ALWAYS come up with from reading my posts are terrible and a complete fail.

 

[Castiel]

Or that is completetly true. Everything he writes about atheism, creationism and evolution, plus his incredibly bad judgementation and constantly jumping to conclusions that have nothing to do with what was actually written and outright refusal to accept any valid source thatcompletely disagrees with anything he says .....

Most intelligent poster on OCUK my ###

You are describing yourself.....

You seem to be in a bit of a meltdown Bhavv....have a cup of tea, settle those nerves.

 

[bhavv]

I am about as open minded on such issues as you can get......including discussing metaphysics and alternatives to our existence.

There are plenty of threads where I have discussed this....including one I started with regard a personal experience which challenged my preconceptions of what existence and subjective consciousness is......

You havnt even yet accepted your earlier error.

Please tell me then, what do atheists and / or scientists who don't believe in either evolution or creationism believe in?

You're the one getting nervous and mad over the last couple of pages here not me.

 

[Van Hellseek]

I did not state that non-Theists must accept Evolution....only asked the question as to what does a Theist who opposes evolution believe in it's stead?

You were very obviously implying that a person has to be a creationist or believe in evolution.

It wasn't an innocent 'query' as you make out, it was an implication.

But sure, go with the "I was only asking" thing, if it makes you happy.