I need to learn how to drive properly, I think

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Well, I can drive to the shops, but in terms of proper driving - clearly not so much. In the Silverstone thread, everyone else - 0:59, 1:01, 1:04 ... me, 1:20. :o

OK, so I have the excuse of it being my first time on a track but its kind of pointed out to me just how much room for improvement there is in terms of my driving. The problem is, it was so awesome I want more. Lots more, in fact. I'd love to do some form of proper motorsport eventually but right now, I'm just too rubbish.

So, what's worth doing next ?

I've been spending the evening doing some nosing around and it looks like there's a few things that stand out as possible options -
Novice Track-day at Brands Hatch, including a session or two with an instructor.
Works out at about £200, down-side is additional nervousness from being in my own car might stop me getting the most out of it ?
They also do a day Track Driving course, at closer to £400, but as this looks to be on a regular day looks like it might be a bit much to soon?

Palmersport's single seaters was reccomended in the other thread, but as far as I can see its ~£500 for a morning. Is it really that good?

The other one that I remember seeing mentioned on here was the Phil Price Rally School, which looks to contain quite a lot of content and is £300 for a day. Seems like a bit of a bargain?

Anyone have any opinions on these & advice on what I should be doing next?

Also considering doing this -
http://www.aroc-uk.com/news/2012/aroc-sprint-series-2012
OK, I'd be rubbish at it, but it sounds fun and the non-MSA ones have a relatively low barrier to entry and are cheap. Very tempted. Good idea or not?
 
What car have you got? One good thing about using your own car on track, is you can sorta learn how it reacts on the edge, which will help you understand it more on the road if you ever do have issues.
 
Also dont under estimate the importance of actually knowing the track. As you say it was your first time so learning the track takes quite a bit of time and if you got some tuition on the day you would probably find your times drop considerably.
 
first you need an interest in driving quickly, then you need to understand the physics of whats going on and why, then put it into practice and learn it in a muscle memory/reactionary sense

i dont think a tutor will be as good, people have told me about the lessons in terms of "you do this at this point, then you do that, and then that" blah blah blah like its paint by numbers
 
act smiley said:
Well, I can drive to the shops, but in terms of proper driving - clearly not so much. In the Silverstone thread, everyone else - 0:59, 1:01, 1:04 ... me, 1:20. :o

OK, so I have the excuse of it being my first time on a track but its kind of pointed out to me just how much room for improvement there is in terms of my driving. The problem is, it was so awesome I want more. Lots more, in fact. I'd love to do some form of proper motorsport eventually but right now, I'm just too rubbish.

So, what's worth doing next ?

I've been spending the evening doing some nosing around and it looks like there's a few things that stand out as possible options -
Novice Track-day at Brands Hatch, including a session or two with an instructor.
Works out at about £200, down-side is additional nervousness from being in my own car might stop me getting the most out of it ?
They also do a day Track Driving course, at closer to £400, but as this looks to be on a regular day looks like it might be a bit much to soon?

Palmersport's single seaters was reccomended in the other thread, but as far as I can see its ~£500 for a morning. Is it really that good?

The other one that I remember seeing mentioned on here was the Phil Price Rally School, which looks to contain quite a lot of content and is £300 for a day. Seems like a bit of a bargain?

Anyone have any opinions on these & advice on what I should be doing next?

Also considering doing this -
http://www.aroc-uk.com/news/2012/aroc-sprint-series-2012
OK, I'd be rubbish at it, but it sounds fun and the non-MSA ones have a relatively low barrier to entry and are cheap. Very tempted. Good idea or not?
Click to expand...


First and foremost I'd say the thing you'd benefit most from is practice. Although the days you mentioned above with tutition are good, until you get a little more comfortable with speed, you might not get the maximum amount out of them.

Instead I would suggest doing some club100 karting. It's the best arrive and drive karting in the country, they use decent 2 stroke karts, and for similar money to you are thinking of spending above you'll get a few full days of practice or racing. You'll get plenty of help and advise from the other drivers and one on one tuition with talented drivers is available relatively cheaply.

Tuition on full circuits as you mentioned above, will also help but I suspect for now track time will make the biggest difference.

Don't be demoralised by your pace either. Motor racing is an unusual sport. Some people are relatively quick right away, but soon hit a brick wall where they struggle to elevate themselves to the top level. Others start off very slow, but with time they continue to improve and very often surpass those who were much quicker to start with. A great example of this is Damon Hill - he was terrible when he first started racing!!
Keeping an open mind, listening to advice and continuously striving for way to improve yourself are the key to getting good. "Natural Talent" in many ways is a myth.
 
Yep - you need to be interested in driving quickly.

On youtube and other places, you can learn about things like: Oversteer, Understeer and the different types - liftoff oversteer (where the weight shifts forwards, losing rear grip), power oversteer (where on a rear wheel drive car, power forces the rear wheels to lose grip) etc etc.

You can drive quickly on the roads but I don't think you can learn too much. Karting is an excellent way to learn car control - I have owned 400+ bhp rwd cars for 3-4 years now and I can honestly say I've had less than 5 oversteer moments on the public roads and 3 of those were deliberate with heavy acceleration (so I knew what to expect) so you don't have to be a complete loony on the roads to learn this stuff.
 
One other suggestion since this is OCUK :).... grab a decent wheel (Logitech DFGT or G27) and sign up to iracing. Because it is a very accurate sim with realistic cars, laser scanned tracks, online racing against other drives who also take the sim seriously plus a safety racing system that encourages you to drive realistically, it is actually a good way to teach yourself basic car control, race craft and the importance of lines/decent technique etc.
 
+1 for the karting suggestions, I had my own kart and raced from about 8-14. The fundamentals of going fast are exactly the same as a car appart from needing to change gears and much more pronounced weight transfer. Karting will get you used to positioning into, during and on exit of corners and will undoubtably introduce you to power oversteer!

As for using your own car, any car can be fun on a trackday but non "sporty" road cars will be challenging due to the setups and soft suspension. If it's something you really fancy having a go at, buy yourself a MK1 MX5 1.8 (pref one with an LSD) strip it out and chuck some suspension on it (£500 will get you fairly decent second hand adj setup), these cars are amazing cheap track toys!
 
Tuition is the way forward IMO. I've had two instruction sessions since the start of the year and I've already taken 3 seconds (from a 66s lap) off my best time so far. Target is to get another 2 secs off that and I should be going round about as quickly as the car is capable of in it's current state.

Do bear in mind that instruction can be specific to the track you are on (best wet and dry lines etc) but it also helps you understand the limits of what your tyres, the car and yourself are capable of which will give you a very good base knowledge to build on.

Enjoy it, it's a lot of fun.
 
Practice practice practice.

I'm not the most experienced out there, haven't even done any real racing - just been out playing with various things.

For cars... Start off with something like an airfield day to learn what cars do right on the limit (you can make big mistakes without any real consequences :) ). Once you learn what they do, you can progress on to learning how to control it.

As you get more and more used to it, the sense of speed dies away a bit and it feels like you have more time to react & after a bit of practice you can start to learn to pre-empt what a car's going to do on a specific corner.

Take a look at the videos from the Palmersport day - you'll see towards the end of the short session, I'm already pre-empting when the car's going to slide... The tuition is good and tailored to you. I would be very surprised if you came away from one of those days not feeling as though your driving standards had improved. It's the JPLM where you get the one on one tuition - you're on your own in the single seaters. I learnt a few good things from it.

Karting is a very good way to learn how to control a vehicle - you're so connected you can really feel everything - pcoltrane is right, club 100 are the best rental company in the UK. Their 2-stroke karts are leagues above and beyond any 4 stroke thing. Karting is where I started and now that funds are better, I'm looking at jumping in an FF2000 or similar.

Once I got a feel for the vehicles I was driving, I'd try to tag myself on the back of someone more experienced to learn what they're doing... some test days were great for this & I learnt quite a bit at Rye house in my gearbox kart from someone a lot more experienced than me, simply by following him.

Correct racing line is very important to getting good times... you'll be amazed how simply adjusting your line and applying power in the correct way can improve lap times... it's a lot more than you would think.

My recommendation would be:

- Start karting (club 100 ideally)
- After you start to feel you've got an idea of what the karts are doing, get some tuition in them
- Then progress on to other things you may like to race... but of course, try and get a sample first - don't just jump in head first :)

If you do fancy going to a few club 100 test days - drop me a line as I may join you or already be going - I'm planning to do a few this year.
 
s0ck said:
Imagine all the single seater days you could do without spending a penny on your own car tho!
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It's not really the same though is it? Even in a decent experience day like the Palmer one, the power is restricted, the cars are set up soft and forgiving etc. Although it's a good taster session, you'd very quickly feel limited if you kept doing it! Not to mention that with your own car you can actually go out an compete!


crinkleshoes said:
If I had the cash available - I'd be rather tempted by this:

http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/3515310.htm

I can't decide whether to get Caterfield first or straight in to a single seater.
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That's an old Formula Ireland car I think. If so it should have a 2 litre Zetec with maybe 190bhp. IIRC the chassis would be similar to the Palmer Audi/Jaguar.
Before you jump in and get one though do make sure you visit a couple of the race series and have a chat with a few people - there are pros and cons of each to consider. Eg, availability of spares, running costs, quality of the race series it's eligable for and how easy/hard it will be to sell on in the future. IMHO, there are potentially some better options than that car.

Whether to go straight for a Single Seater or a Caterfield - that's a hard one to answer! It depends on how much you want to race and what you want to spend!


PardonTheWait said:
Why not £1000s worth of 90s hot hatch? It's more about the driver than the car and you'll learn nothing driving a race ready single seater around on your own.
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That's really not the case. You'll learn loads more driving a single seater on your own because of the precision of the car. They are hugely rewarding to drive well, but let you know straight away if you're not doing it right!
The road car will mask a lot of bad habbits and bad technique. It's not necesarily more cost effective to take a road car on the track compared to a single seater either.
 
PardonTheWait said:
Why not £1000s worth of 90s hot hatch? It's more about the driver than the car and you'll learn nothing driving a race ready single seater around on your own.
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Been there, done that... not interested any more... I will never choose to own another FWD car, even on the road... let alone for the track! I'd rather have a boat of an e36 328 than a brand new renaultsport megane or similar.

They are just not comparable - I will be getting tuition and be joining in on events in a single seater ;)

The only decision is which to get first... caterfield or single seater - I will own both.

Can get better tuition in a Caterfield of course as you can have the instructor with you, but I think I might prefer a single seater first and would likely get a data logger - will see what's available when I have the cash saved up.
 
pcoltrane said:
It's not really the same though is it? Even in a decent experience day like the Palmer one, the power is restricted, the cars are set up soft and forgiving etc. Although it's a good taster session, you'd very quickly feel limited if you kept doing it! Not to mention that with your own car you can actually go out an compete!
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Definitely not the same, the most basic is I want more freedom with my sessions and the engine.

I won't be jumping straight in to racing it - but that time will most definitely come. I will want to get comfortable with the car on various test days first.

What restrictions are there with open wheelers on standard track days... I imagine not allowed as I've never seen one. I guess there are specific test days for them? I'd just like a bit of freedom with when and where I can show up to a track. I know I'd get more of that with a Caterfield - just curious on the restrictions.

Even if (unlikely) I never competed - I would still want one to play with.

Ownership is definitely worth it for me and I can afford it... I just have to wait while saving up as credit computer says no :(

That's an old Formula Ireland car I think. If so it should have a 2 litre Zetec with maybe 190bhp. IIRC the chassis would be similar to the Palmer Audi/Jaguar.
Before you jump in and get one though do make sure you visit a couple of the race series and have a chat with a few people - there are pros and cons of each to consider. Eg, availability of spares, running costs, quality of the race series it's eligable for and how easy/hard it will be to sell on in the future. IMHO, there are potentially some better options than that car.
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It sounds like fun and looks rather nice (I prefer the more modern aero look, but I still don't know much about them of course).

I'm not going to just jump in and buy something - that just peaked my interest after a quick browse on Pistonheads.

I'll be asking for advice, for sure :)

190ish bhp will be perfect... I want more than the 1600s (even though I didn't get to experience a de-restricted one, I can tell from the mid-range power), but insane power wouldn't be a good starting point. I still have a lot to learn to get the most out of the 1600s, I'll just feel happier with something a bit more.

Whether to go straight for a Single Seater or a Caterfield - that's a hard one to answer! It depends on how much you want to race and what you want to spend!
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I'll see how I get on with saving up - I'm far too good at frittering money away!

I have £4k now and if a bit frugal, can put away £2k/month.

Knowing my spending habits though - it'll be more like £1-1.5k/month :(

If I avoid the urge to splurge on a new comp when Keplar is released and stick with my ipad2 instead of a 3... that'll help, lol. Need to be a bit more controlled.

So I have a bit of time to wait, I can't do this any time soon :(

That's really not the case. You'll learn loads more driving a single seater on your own because of the precision of the car. They are hugely rewarding to drive well, but let you know straight away if you're not doing it right!
The road car will mask a lot of bad habbits and bad technique. It's not necesarily more cost effective to take a road car on the track compared to a single seater either.
Click to expand...
Depends - I imagine I'll reach a point where I can't improve by myself much more and need tuition to get over a hurdle or two... but then that's to be expected, I reckon most will reach stopping points where a few tips make a nice improvement :)

The main vs for me is slidey fun in Caterham vs precision in single seater - I want both - it's just a question of patience... I'm not a patient person :(
 
crinkleshoes said:
Definitely not the same, the most basic is I want more freedom with my sessions and the engine.

I won't be jumping straight in to racing it - but that time will most definitely come. I will want to get comfortable with the car on various test days first.

What restrictions are there with open wheelers on standard track days... I imagine not allowed as I've never seen one. I guess there are specific test days for them? I'd just like a bit of freedom with when and where I can show up to a track. I know I'd get more of that with a Caterfield - just curious on the restrictions.
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Most track days won't allow single seaters out with the closed wheel cars although there may be some exceptions.

There are however plenty of open wheel test days at the various circuits around the country. For most of them you'll need to have passed an ARDS test/have a race license, but the advantage is the higher quality track time. Ie, Only on track with other racing drivers, no restrictions on overtaking, etc.

When I took my car to somewhere like Castle Combe, it was so quiet that it was open pit lane all day and I shared the circuit with only a couple of other cars.

Other circuits like Silverstone can be busier, especially if there is a big race meeting the following weekend. I tested there before the BTCC weekend, which meant loads of Formula Renaults on track along with a big assortement of other cars. Despite at times having a couple of F.Renaults passing me through Copse at the same time as I was passing a pair of Formula Fords I didn't have an issue with any driver all day and got plenty of good quality laps in.


crinkleshoes said:
Even if (unlikely) I never competed - I would still want one to play with.

Ownership is definitely worth it for me and I can afford it... I just have to wait while saving up as credit computer says no :(

It sounds like fun and looks rather nice (I prefer the more modern aero look, but I still don't know much about them of course).

I'm not going to just jump in and buy something - that just peaked my interest after a quick browse on Pistonheads.

I'll be asking for advice, for sure :)

190ish bhp will be perfect... I want more than the 1600s (even though I didn't get to experience a de-restricted one, I can tell from the mid-range power), but insane power wouldn't be a good starting point. I still have a lot to learn to get the most out of the 1600s, I'll just feel happier with something a bit more.
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I'm not convinced that going for something with that much power and Aero is the way to go initially. Unlike the experience days, even in a FFord1600 you'll be running noticably faster (130mph+) on circuits with far less run off. The cars are also trickier to drive when you set them up to go quickly rather than be forgiving.
I did a Palmersport day years ago which included the Palmer Audi. Driving the car I have now feels faster, particularly in the quick corners.
It takes a while to build up to getting the most out of a car with lots of Aero too. Drivers who have had a chance to really get to grips with and reach the limits of a slighly slower car tend to fare much better when they step up to a quicker car as they aren't scared of the limits. The cars with lots of Aero can break away pretty quickly, which is daunting for a less experienced driver.


crinkleshoes said:
I'll see how I get on with saving up - I'm far too good at frittering money away!

I have £4k now and if a bit frugal, can put away £2k/month.

Knowing my spending habits though - it'll be more like £1-1.5k/month :(

If I avoid the urge to splurge on a new comp when Keplar is released and stick with my ipad2 instead of a 3... that'll help, lol. Need to be a bit more controlled.

So I have a bit of time to wait, I can't do this any time soon :(
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If you have that sort of disposable income, you can certainly afford to do some racing :) Thats one of the biggest hurdles crossed already.


crinkleshoes said:
Depends - I imagine I'll reach a point where I can't improve by myself much more and need tuition to get over a hurdle or two... but then that's to be expected, I reckon most will reach stopping points where a few tips make a nice improvement :)

The main vs for me is slidey fun in Caterham vs precision in single seater - I want both - it's just a question of patience... I'm not a patient person :(
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If you're after slidey fun maybe a Formula Ford 1600 might be the best compromise between the two? The 1600s slide a lot with no aero and treaded tyres. With a bit of experience under your belt in one, you'll then be ready to get the most out of a quicker car.
 
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