Do murderers deserve to die?

[semi-pro waster]

You're probably right Waster. It's quite depressing,

It's not exactly a surprise though, the viewpoints and the battlelines are too firmly entrenched to allow for much movement. It would however be nice if people would stop putting up facile positions and stating they represent the views of the other party.

Which doesnt work for 74% of criminals.

Poorly implemented rehabilititation doesn't work for 74% of criminal, it's not quite the same thing as saying that 3/4 of criminals cannot be rehabilitated which is what you are either stating or trying to imply.

Norway does it better at around 20% recidivism, Sweden manages somewhere below 40% recidivism so that would appear to indicate it is possible that rehabilitation works in some cases and could potentially work in more than the 26% you keep highlighting. That's unless we believe the premise that some nations are inherently criminal or impossible to change - I happen to believe neither of those therefore I think that it's a question of approaching it in the right way. Unfortunately from some points of view rehabilitation when done properly is not cheap and does not appeal to those who view Old Testament justice as the preferred solution - it does not and cannot work for everyone, there will always be people who cannot be reformed, just as there will always be those who choose to abuse whatever system you put in place but it's worth persevering with.

 

[bhavv]

The UK will never reach the level of advancement of the Scandinavian countries, I cant even believe we will ever come close.

Rehabilitation in its current form is simply not working in the UK. Criminals are being treated to softly, being released to early, and too much importance is placed on protecting the human rights of individuals who showed no sympathy towards the human lives of others.

This is an immoral system to me.

 

[Castiel]

"As if one crime of such nature, done by a single man, acting individually, can be expiated by a similar crime done by all men, acting collectively."

Lewis Lawes.

 

[bhavv]

So what if a person who has committed a serious crime would prefer to be executed rather than jailed? Should it be allowed?

 

[Castiel]

So what if a person who has committed a serious crime would prefer to be executed rather than jailed? Should it be allowed?

That would depend on the mental state of the individual....and it could be argued that in committing a serious enough crime to warrant consideration of such a request would imply that the mental stability of the individual is compromised to begin with......

 

[[FnG]magnolia]

I admire those who can continue this fight because I can't. He either can't or won't grasp it.

 

[Skidder]

The UK will never reach the level of advancement of the Scandinavian countries, I cant even believe we will ever come close.

Rehabilitation in its current form is simply not working in the UK. Criminals are being treated to softly, being released to early, and too much importance is placed on protecting the human rights of individuals who showed no sympathy towards the human lives of others.

This is an immoral system to me.

So the moral position is to kill offenders rather than improve the process of rehabilitation, when there is precedent illustrating a better system and improved results. That doesn't seem particularly sound logic to me and I would go as far as to say sounds immoral.

What is to say the UK will never reach the level of advancement of Scandinavian countries? Is there some inherent problem with our climate that retards progress (Montesquieu style)?

 

[semi-pro waster]

The UK will never reach the level of advancement of the Scandinavian countries, I cant even believe we will ever come close.

Ok, I'll bite. Why are the Scandinavian countries so advanced and why can the UK not approach a similar level?

Rehabilitation in its current form is simply not working in the UK. Criminals are being treated to softly, being released to early, and too much importance is placed on protecting the human rights of individuals who showed no sympathy towards the human lives of others.

This is an immoral system to me.

That rehabilitation is not done well in the UK is my point (at least it isn't done well in most instances, there are doubtless some good programmes) so we're agreeing on something at least. If the claim is that harsher punishments have a deterrent effect it would be nice to see some evidence of this - if the evidence is along the lines of "it's common sense" then I'm afraid I'll have to discount that.

So what if a person who has committed a serious crime would prefer to be executed rather than jailed? Should it be allowed?

If we're not allowing euthanasia then why should we allow it for criminals?

 

[bhavv]

Better education, better rehabilitation, better quality of life, better healthcare, ranked much higher in the best countries to live polls etc.

The UK on the other hand has been heavily declining, not progressing over the last 3-5 years. I dont think we will reach that level of progress.

 

[Skidder]

Better education, better rehabilitation, better quality of life, better healthcare, ranked much higher in the best countries to live polls etc.

The UK on the hand has been heavily declining, not progressing over the last 3-5 years. I dont think we will reach that level of progress.

Are you seriously saying that the solution to those measurable and changeable issues is to kill offenders?

 

[bhavv]

Are you seriously saying that the solution to those measurable and changeable issues is to kill offenders?

I simply have no understanding how you possibly concluded that.

 

[dirtychinchilla]

Well you've suggested that because we aren't competent enough to punish and rehabilitate prisoners correctly, the only other plausible solution is just to kill them.

 

[bhavv]

I didnt say prisoners, Ive only said murderers.

I dont agree that murderers are among the demographic of prisoners that can be rehabilitated easily.

 

[Skidder]

I simply have no understanding how you possibly concluded that.

Because it was you have said in roundabout (derpy) terms. I appreciate you are not suggesting stoning a kid who pinches a bag of sweets.

 

[Marshstyles]

Some of the posts on here remind me of this...

 

[KatanaDV20]

Death is a way out for people like this. I used to believe in the DP but then realized its important to make people like this suffer till the end.

And it does not take much. A 6ft X 6ft stainless-steel cell with no window and 1 meal a week and no family visits, no time out-time no books, nothing. Just walls, a crapper and a sink. And a light thats never turned off. For life.

This I think would be worse than death. In fact...there have been cases of prisoners pleading to be put to death quickly rather than endure this.

People who have committed such a crime have passed a life sentence on the families of their victim. They should ALSO be given a life sentence.

Unfortunately thats where our beloved country breaks down. Shockingly even murderers are not given *true* life sentences. They are fed meals, allowed visits...its disgusting.

 

[bhavv]

Because it was you have said in roundabout (derpy) terms. I appreciate you are not suggesting stoning a kid who pinches a bag of sweets.

So you interperate and compare laws that even exist in the USA with stoning kids? How illogical.

but then realized its important to make people like this suffer till the end.

Except we dont make them suffer till the end, everyone here wants them rehabilitated with TVs, PS3s and pool tables.

 

[Top Cat]

No one can be rehabilitated; it's entirely their free choice. They have freewill.

If they want to stay evil and keep commiting crimes, they will do. If they want to change, it's entirely up to them. No one can make a person good.

 

[Riddell]

Death is a way out for people like this. I used to believe in the DP but then realized its important to make people like this suffer till the end.

And it does not take much. A 6ft X 6ft stainless-steel cell with no window and 1 meal a week and no family visits, no time out-time no books, nothing. Just walls, a crapper and a sink. And a light thats never turned off. For life.

This I think would be worse than death. In fact...there have been cases of prisoners pleading to be put to death quickly rather than endure this.

People who have committed such a crime have passed a life sentence on the families of their victim. They should ALSO be given a life sentence.

Unfortunately thats where our beloved country breaks down. Shockingly even murderers are not given *true* life sentences. They are fed meals, allowed visits...its disgusting.

What you're talking about is revenge then, not justice.

No-one in this thread has yet to change my opinion that the DP is horrendous, but the lesser of two evils. I believe anyone that destroys the live of another other human beings does not deserve the gift of life, in any form.

I challenge anyone to read this article and say that the death penalty shouldn't have been used. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murders_of_Channon_Christian_and_Christopher_Newsom

 

[Meridian]

I didnt say prisoners, Ive only said murderers.

I dont agree that murderers are among the demographic of prisoners that can be rehabilitated easily.

Actually they are amongst the easiest. The vast majority of murderers killed someone they knew well, and usually under particular circumstances. I high proportion are genuinely remorseful. I obviously exclude the much smaller proportion who kill strangers, or more than once, or for a cause - they are a far harder groups. But most murderers of the type I listed first are successfully released with a very low recidivism rate. And for all those who are going to troll Google looking for exceptions, I'll remind you that the data is not the plural of anecdote. It's career criminals for profit who have the high recidivism rates. They skew the figures because they make up a high proportion of the overall numbers.


M