Man claims stroke turned him gay

[|Thomas|]

Saying you can find information on something by Googling something I put in quotes does not mean I believe what is in the quotes, especially when I have categorically stated otherwise.

So you asked us to google something to find information on a point that you did not think is valid? Why, exactly?

I know, I one of the other people making that point! And I did not call it a mental problem, in fact I said it wasn't.

I said it is not a mental disorder and that to insinuate such would be homophobic, and I have even stressed this point in further posts >.>

Generally speaking, the use of "" implies a level of sarcasm in your statement. That is how I read it, and I apologise if that is not the case.

However, it is still an incorrect statement, it is not a mental disorder because it has none of the qualities which define mental disorders. If scientists had found otherwise, homophobic or not it would have been stated as such, especially when attitudes against the LGBT community were far less liberal than today.

 

[Nerusy]

Having a biological link =/= 'mental disorder'.

No, because as I have said many times in this thread it is not a mental disorder

Bhavv, please read before posting.

 

[bhavv]

I read very clearly. My issue isn't that Ubersonic thinks that homosexuality is a mental disorder, but has posted at least twice that science says it is.

Don't blame my reading skills when most people reading this thread can see the very same thing.

 

[ubersonic]

Good god, reading about sexuality from the university of Texas, are you actually being serious or just trolling now?

Scientific research is scientific research, Texas uni may sound silly because we have all seen red-neck Texas on TV but im sure a university with better funding than almost any in the UK will have a decent science department.

And wait, what you actually quoted doesn't even conclude 'mental disorder' in any way whatsoever.

The stuff I said about your deliberate misreading of my posts not annoying me, im considering taking it back

I do not think homosexuality is a mental disorder
I have not said so in this thread

Having a biological link =/= 'mental disorder'.

This is what I have been saying all along!

 

[ubersonic]

Generally speaking, the use of "" implies a level of sarcasm in your statement. That is how I read it, and I apologise if that is not the case.

Ahh, that explains a lot of the responses I have got I guess lol, emotions/sarcasm and the written form often course problems especially on the internet, it was intended to be read like so:

Its caused by irregularities in the brain (hence why a stroke can cause it), this has been known for decades if not longer, however its not classed a mental problem because [only homophobes would consider it a problem *rolls eyes at stupidity of aforementioned homophobes*]

 

[bhavv]

It's what I was taught in school, if you google "homosexuality brain disorder" a lot of stuff will come up. This really is common knowledge mate (although not commonly talked about because, being true doesn't stop it being offensive) its been known for ages.

Right, so all along I've simply been imagining things, this quote is clearly not real and wad never posted

 

[Nerusy]

Right, so all along I've simply been imagining things, this quote is clearly not real and wad never posted

Having a biological link =/= 'mental disorder'.

irregularities in the brain

irregularities in the brain = biological link

biological link = / = mental disorder.

I am just trying to help you guys not run around in a circle.

 

[Nitefly]

There is some quite extensive scientific research on sexuality. In summary, homosexuality is believed to be somewhat partially influenced by a combination of alleles of at least several hundred genes, with many of these on the Y chromosome (perhaps helping to explain why there are more gay men than women).

The hypothesis is that those alleles in most combinations actually give increased heterosexual reproductive success, hence whey they are maintained in the genepool even though they may give in certain combinations a 'non-reproductive' (homosexual) phenotype. This would explain why gay behaviour is common and can stem from non-gay ancestors.

 

[bhavv]

Its caused by irregularities in the brain (hence why a stroke can cause it), this has been known for decades if not longer

1) Homosexuality may or may not be caused by irregularities in the brain. Every bit of scientific research has suggested a multitude of causes for homosexuality from genetics, hormonal imbalances, and not only brain variations, but also other physical differences such as finger length.

2) No individually speculated reason or cause of homosexuality is present in 100% of homosexuals. There are a multitude of speculated reasons which widely differ from one control group to another.

3) It is not fully conclusive that 'irregularities in the brain' is the specific cause of homosexuality. This term is far to broad and inconclusive to accept as a valid reason for what causes homosexuality.

4) There is no scientific data or understanding that supports that strokes or any other condition can suddenly cause a complete shift in a persons sexuality. Its entirely possible to be gay and not have a single irregularity in the brain. Such speculated irregularities cannot be detected in 100% of gay people as a clear diagnosis of a persons sexuality.

Its 99% more likely that this guy that had a stroke is simply making the entire thing up, than it is possible that a stroke can turn people gay.

 

[ubersonic]

Right, so all along I've simply been imagining things, this quote is clearly not real and wad never posted

That quote is real (however being used out of context) and when you read it together with the other posts in the discussion chain it basically reads:

Somebody: "is it biological/pyscological/enviromental?"
Me: "its biological, its caused by irregularities in the brain"
Somebody: "citation needed!"
Me: "Google "homosexuality brain disorder" a lot of stuff will come up."

Just because I gave somebody search terms to find something with does not mean I believe those terms, especially when I have stated I do not, I have already said all this though.

irregularities in the brain = biological link

biological link = / = mental disorder.

I am just trying to help you guys not run around in a circle.

This guy understands what I have been saying, thank you

 

[|Thomas|]

Ahh, that explains a lot of the responses I have got I guess lol, emotions/sarcasm and the written form often course problems especially on the internet, it was intended to be read like so:

Its caused by irregularities in the brain (hence why a stroke can cause it), this has been known for decades if not longer, however its not classed a mental problem because [only homophobes would consider it a problem *rolls eyes at stupidity of aforementioned homophobes*]

Then I apologise for misunderstanding, but I hope you can see how your post can be read entirely differently, as in "it's not classed as a mental disorder because that's 'homophobic' [*rolleyes at PC liberalism classing it as homophobia*]"

Misunderstandings happen though, so I shall not burn this witch

 

[bhavv]

There is some quite extensive scientific research on sexuality. In summary, homosexuality is believed to be somewhat partially influenced by a combination of alleles of at least several hundred genes, with many of these on the Y chromosome (perhaps helping to explain why there are more gay men than women).

The hypothesis is that those alleles in most combinations actually give increased heterosexual reproductive success, hence whey they are maintained in the genepool even though they may give in certain combinations a 'non-reproductive' (homosexual) phenotype. This would explain why gay behaviour is common and can stem from non-gay ancestors.

All the research points to so many different reasons that it is 100% incorrect to state 'this specific reason is the cause of homosexuality'.

While there is support of a genetic link, identical twin studies which are the cornerstone of research in genetics show that while identical twin siblings have a higher chance of both siblings being gay, in most cases where gay people have an identical twin sibling, their sibling is straight. This alone completely debunks the claim that 'homosexuality is genetic', not ignoring that no genes have ever been identified to cause homosexuality.

The strongest support for the cause of homosexuality lies within hormonal imbalances during foetal development, and this may or may not lead to mental masculinisation in females, or feminisation in males creating the entire spectrum of sexuality and mental gender variation. Yet the most important thing debunking these theories is that any of the speculated theories and possible causes of homosexuality have never been shown to be present in 100% of homosexuals. Any and all speculated causes for homosexuality may be entirely absent in any gay person.

 

[Nitefly]

All the research points to so many different reasons that it is 100% incorrect to state 'this specific reason is the cause of homosexuality'.

That I completely agree with.

While there is support of a genetic link, identical twin studies which are the cornerstone of research in genetics show that while identical twin siblings have a higher chance of both siblings being gay, in most cases where gay people have an identical twin sibling, their sibling is straight. This alone completely debunks the claim that 'homosexuality is genetic', not ignoring that no genes have ever been identified to cause homosexuality.

I don't however agree with this, at least the extent that I disagree with the notion that it's not at least partially genetic. As said, there are many factors that influence sexuality including environment that could have an influence. I don't think such a study would 'completely debunk' any genetic influence.

There are several gene alleles that are known to somehow correspond with homosexuality, but when we are dealing with multiple alleles of potentially thousands of genes, perhaps even hudnreds of thousands, it's practically impossible to map a phenotype. We struggle to do this with 2/3 genes affecting nematode resistance in sheep, let alone anything more complicated.

 

[George Hincapie]

I think he was probably always gay and has used this as an excuse because he was too ashamed to admit it previously.

Most likely explanation TBH.

 

[bhavv]

That I completely agree with.


I don't however agree with this, at least the extent that I disagree with the notion that it's not at least partially genetic. As said, there are many factors that influence sexuality including environment that could have an influence. I don't think such a study would 'completely debunk' any genetic influence.

There are several gene alleles that are known to somehow correspond with homosexuality, but when we are dealing with multiple alleles of potentially thousands of genes, perhaps even hudnreds of thousands, it's practically impossible to map a phenotype. We struggle to do this with 2/3 genes affecting nematode resistance in sheep, let alone anything more complicated.

A phenotype is a physical expression of the genotype. In all cases where genes lead to a physical variation, the characteristic phenotype is present in 100% of people who share that same genotype.

Identical twins have a 100% identical genotype. Their physical phenotypes expressed by their genes will as a result be 100% identical, and any variation between the two siblings has to be caused by something other than genes.

If a physical / mental expression is not shared by identical siblings, then this variation cannot have a genetic basis.

The increased liklihood of identical siblings both being gay is much more likely, based on the number and proportion of such cases to be caused due to both siblings experiencing similar levels of hormonal imbalances during foetal development.

 

[Nitefly]

A phenotype is a physical expression of the genotype. In all cases where genes lead to a physical variation, the characteristic phenotype is present in 100% of people who share that same genotype.

Identical twins have a 100% identical genotype. Their physical phenotypes expressed by their genes will as a result be 100% identical, and any variation between the two siblings has to be caused by something other than genes.

If a physical / mental expression is not shared by identical siblings, then this variation cannot have a genetic basis.

But being gay is a behavioural phenotype and behavioural phenotypes are also influenced by their environments. It seems to me very unlikely that these identical twins each lived the exact same lifestyle, heck, life as the other.

I'm not saying that the study you have presented is not evidence against homosexuality being genetic, obviously it is. I just don't think it 'completely debunks it', far from it.

 

[bhavv]

Most of the twin studies were carried out with identical twins living under the same environment. There is a video documented case study available on YouTube where two identical twin boys are being raised in the same house and environment, but one is completely transgendered and fully believes he is a girl, while the other is a completely normal boy.

This proves to me a lack of any kind of genetic link.

 

[|Thomas|]

Most of the twin studies were carried out with identical twins living under the same environment. There is a video documented case study available on YouTube where two identical twin boys are being raised in the same house and environment, but one is completely transgendered and fully believes he is a girl, while the other is a completely normal boy.

This proves to me a lack of any kind of genetic link.

This sort of socio-biology is at best capable of producing weak correlations between variables. Providing one case study which is counter to the idea of a genetic link is not sufficient to show that there is no genetic link. All it shows is that it is an extremely complex topic with numerous variables.

Besides, gender and sexuality are two separate issues, being homosexual does not imply you think of yourself as the opposite sex.

 

[bhavv]

Twin studies are actually a very crucial part of genetics, not socio biology.

If you study genetics and hereditary sciences, you will be taught about identical twin studies first and foremost.

Genetics does not, and cannot conclude that there is any genetic link to homosexuality, as absolutely no evidence of this has yet been found. It can surely hypothesize and speculate with scientific understanding, but if the science is not supported by the methods and results, it is debunked entirely.

 

[Nitefly]

Most of the twin studies were carried out with identical twins living under the same environment.
...
This proves to me a lack of any kind of genetic link.

The whole idea of trying to provide a controlled environment is limited in this case. By being two different people, they are going to have different abundances of different social encounters as they grow up. It's entirely possible this could have entirely influenced the outcome if their genetics made them 'susceptible' to homosexual behaviour.

This sort of socio-biology is at best capable of producing weak correlations between variables. Providing one case study which is counter to the idea of a genetic link is not sufficient to show that there is no genetic link. All it shows is that it is an extremely complex topic with numerous variables.

I agree with this.

Genetics does not, and cannot conclude that there is any genetic link to homosexuality, as absolutely no evidence of this has yet been found.

You are going to argue this to the cows come home, but I'm just going to say that you are wrong to say there is no evidence of this, we did half a lecture on this topic at university and the bottom line was 'nobody really knows, but there is evidence to suggest it is at least somewhat influenced by genetics'. I'm not going into the loft to dig out the sources so you are just going to have to take my word for it I'm afraid *shrug* - useless I know