Do extra terrestrials exist? If so...

Freakbro · 19 Apr 2012 at 19:22

Castiel said:
http://www.science20.com/news_relea...obability_of_life_on_other_earth_like_planets

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Watson_(scientist)

It would seem that not all scientists agree with the conclusions that some have maintained are shared by all scientists.....

The OP is rather vague, are we talking about complex intelligent life or just any form of recognisable (in our definition) organism?

As the scientist above seems to be talking specifically about the former.

Castiel · 19 Apr 2012 at 19:30

Freakbro said:
The OP is rather vague, are we talking about complex intelligent life or just any form of recognisable (in our definition) organism?

As the scientist above seems to be talking specifically about the former.

He is talking about the relative probabilities of all life....He talks about the increasingly unlikely probability the more complex life becomes.....He refers the what he calls 'steps' throughout the article.

Freakbro · 19 Apr 2012 at 19:33

Castiel said:
He is talking about the relative probabilities of all life....He talks about the increasingly unlikely probability the more complex life becomes.....He refers the what he calls 'steps' throughout the article.

Yes, I read that, but I was asking what definition is being discussed in this thread to see how relevant it was, without having to read all 21 pages

Castiel · 19 Apr 2012 at 20:01

Freakbro said:
Yes, I read that, but I was asking what definition is being discussed in this thread to see how relevant it was, without having to read all 21 pages

Oh right....I think the OP and the thread is somewhat open ended on that. (although the OP seems to think Aliens/Extraterrestrial life is synonymous so he may well be referring to the more usual intelligent kind)

The article was relevant to the discussion on the stated probabilities of some of the other posters who are of the opinion that Extraterrestrial life (including advanced complex intelligent life) is so highly probable due to the vast size of the Universe and that a consensus of Scientists all think that it is almost a certainty according to the Drake Equation so it is a foregone conclusion and that the Copernican Hypothesis is therefore akin to scientific truth.

So it's relevance is more in the interpretation of how the probability stacks up rather than whether I believe one position or the other.

Freakbro · 19 Apr 2012 at 20:44

Ahh I see, cheers for the tl;dr

Well, I'm in the "of course life, in any recognisable form as I don't distinguish between simple and complex life in this context, exists outside of this one planet" camp..... if we had a poll

Castiel · 19 Apr 2012 at 20:52

Freakbro said:
Ahh I see, cheers for the tl;dr

Well, I'm in the "of course life, in any recognisable form as I don't distinguish between simple and complex life in this context, exists outside of this one planet" camp..... if we had a poll

I am of the opinion that extraterrestrial life is very likely, however I remain sceptical about ascribing an definitive positive (or negative) position to it until there is some definitive evidence other than estimates based on equations designed to foster discussion rather than scientific opinion, therefore I differ slightly with your opinion insofar that I wouldn't say "of course...."

I find all the various hypotheses (of which there are many) fascinating though.

Raoh · 19 Apr 2012 at 21:02

In answer to the opening post, yes I do believe they exist, are out there, have been here and are here now. It's not just ET's, it's ID's too (inter dimensional).

Once you start looking with an open mind you start connecting the dots and seeing the evidence that is coming from many credible sources, not just a bunch of tin-foil hat wearing loons; there's a huge amount of material from credible pilots, military, police, politicians (ahem) etc.

Also, many of these accounts from such people (and others) start to match up and build a picture over time, that isn't always obvious when you first look into all of this or if you have a 'box' on your head and refuse to have an open mind. Each to their own though, it's not our job to make people believe, you can say what you think and they can take it or leave it - their loss.

ethan · 19 Apr 2012 at 21:35

A refreshing approach concerning the search for life can be had here:

http://phys.org/news/2011-11-group-odds-life-worlds.html

To add to this are the following implications:

"There is nothing 'Goldilocks' about DNA and RNA - there is no overwhelming functional imperative for genetic systems or biology to be based on these two nucleic acids."

In an accompanying article in Science, Gerald Joyce of the Scripps Research Institute wrote that "the work heralds the era of synthetic genetics, with implications for exobiology (life elsewhere in the Universe), biotechnology, and understanding of life itself".

These are interesting times.

AndrewNR · 19 Apr 2012 at 22:56

Even if it e.t life does exist somewhere else I can't see any life being able to "travel" to it before their planet/solar system dies.

craptakular · 20 Apr 2012 at 06:34

Would they have their own God? If they did, how would our God like it?

Freakbro · 20 Apr 2012 at 07:24

Castiel said:
I am of the opinion that extraterrestrial life is very likely, however I remain sceptical about ascribing an definitive positive (or negative) position to it until there is some definitive evidence other than estimates based on equations designed to foster discussion rather than scientific opinion, therefore I differ slightly with your opinion insofar that I wouldn't say "of course...."

I find all the various hypotheses (of which there are many) fascinating though.

That's an understandable viewpoint of course, though I find a little conservative.

I remember the time when people didn't even believe there were any more planets in the universe and just because science hadn't proved one, it was a legitimate, if blinkered, viewpoint - one which at the time, even at such a young age, I found foolish and thought "of course there are other planets...."

I see the question about does life exist beyond our planet in the same way.

It seems to come down to the question of how does life initially originate, which for our species has a basic theological point to it.

Whereas I don't see life as this sacred, mystical force that needs to be brought into existence by some intervention of intelligent design. It is just a natural process within this universe and as such will turn out to not be special or unique to earth. Yes, I have no absolute proof and am not claiming such, just a logical extrapolation upon the knowledge and understanding we have without the need for religious explanatations. But I am confident enough not to remain agnostic by saying that yes, we will find the evidence out there.

Don't get me wrong though, why there is life and how a few atoms that come together to form nucleotides (which we have shown can happen spontaneously) which in turn form this system based around DNA has led to what we see today is fascinating, hence why I studied Biology and then Molecular Genetics in my student years.

Castiel · 20 Apr 2012 at 08:15

Freakbro said:
That's an understandable viewpoint of course, though I find a little conservative.

its not conservative, it is simply not ascribing a definitive positive conclusion on what is effectively inconclusive evidence.....it is a purely sceptical approach, one which is inkeeping with scientific methodology.

Freakbro said:
I remember the time when people didn't even believe there were any more planets in the universe and just because science hadn't proved one, it was a legitimate, if blinkered, viewpoint - one which at the time, even at such a young age, I found foolish and thought "of course there are other planets...."

how old are you?

We have known that other Planets existed for thousands of years as many of those in the Solar System are visible with the naked eye.

Although your analogy, even if true, wouldn't apply to me as I do not disbelieve in ETs because science hasn't proven them to exist, I simply remain open minded and while I personally think they do in probability exist, I do not take that leap of faith and say they definitely exist as the term 'of course..' would imply.

Freakbro said:
It seems to come down to the question of how does life initially originate, which for our species has a basic theological point to it.

Whereas I don't see life as this sacred, mystical force that needs to be brought into existence by some intervention of intelligent design. It is just a natural process within this universe and as such will turn out to not be special or unique to earth. Yes, I have no absolute proof and am not claiming such, just a logical extrapolation upon the knowledge and understanding we have without the need for religious explanatations. But I am confident enough not to remain agnostic by saying that yes, we will find the evidence out there.

I don't think that religion has anything to do with it, it might have things to say about the 'meaning' of life and about the 'why', but it doesn't impact on the 'how' which for the purposes of determining whether life exists elsewhere in the Universe is purely a scientific endeavour and should be treated as such.

From a scientific perspective and given the nature and inconclusivity of the current evidence, along with the various competeing scientific hypotheses related to this subject, the only logical position would be one of hopeful scepticism. Science simply doesn't ascribe truth without a significant body of conclusive evidence.

Bulldog14 · 20 Apr 2012 at 09:51

Glaucus said:
We do realise, but that does not help us with the most important number we need to make any such probability. The chance of life arising. Life arose on this planet we know that. All the extreme survival does is broadens the planets we need to look at. It tells us zilch about the chances of life arising.

Evolution means you should be able to predict features as it's trends towards perfection for any given environment. So allyhough you can't predict looks, it is no surprise we have the features we have.

I look at at from a slightly different perspective. Rather than thinking in terms of likelyhood, I would suggest that life is inevitable, if the right conditions are met. When basic requirements are met it will occur everytime. It is the number of factors that need to align that is the limiting issue. The complexity of said life is another matter.

Say for example we come across an alien database that has a list of 100 random worlds capable of supporting life. The vast majority will be limited to algae and micro-life forms only, a smaller amount will harbor actual plants, and only 1 or 2 will support more advanced animal life. Why so certain on this? Because of the sheer number of limiting factors that will restrict higher life from developing. The limiting factors being nature's filter.

Now of course this is just my take on it, and I won't even pretend to say I drew it from a credible source, other than my own summation of everything I've ever read, seen or heard. Rip into it Gents.

Glaucus · 20 Apr 2012 at 09:54

You can look at it how you like, were talking about probabilities and that you can not use to support your opinion that life is abundent

SexyGreyFox · 20 Apr 2012 at 10:09

Up to 5 years ago I thought we were totally unique but this forum changed my mind and I now 100% believe that life will find a way if it can.
It may not be life how we understand it and I'm not sure if any of it could be intelligent but I'm positive it's out there wherever it has a chance to happen.

dirtychinchilla · 20 Apr 2012 at 10:15

Good

Although we have to be agnostic about this, I think it's fantastic that people are of the opinion that aliens exist, it's exciting! Hopefully they find some in our lifetimes...

jimjamuk · 20 Apr 2012 at 10:19

Glaucus said:
You can look at it how you like, were talking about probabilities and that you can not use to support your opinion that life is abundent

Please dont go on about probability again - we understand your view point that probability does not equal proof. I also hold the view that life isnt something special that has occured on Earth. given the right conditions I think life will emerge in some way or another of any other planet given time (and a lot of time has passed in the Universe). Can I stick a number on that - no. Does that mean that this view is invalid?

After studying Astronomy, Cosmology and Astrobiology at UCLAN I can see why scientists are excited about finding other planets in the habitable zones around other stars. The only problem I see is detecting life given it will probably be simple organisms will be difficult but I think our best chance is to analyse any water under the surface of Mars whenever we get there for small organisms that have evolved form the time when Mars had water on the surface and had an atmosphere

SexyGreyFox · 20 Apr 2012 at 10:22

dirtychinchilla said:
Good Although we have to be agnostic about this, I think it's fantastic that people are of the opinion that aliens exist, it's exciting! Hopefully they find some in our lifetimes...

When I think 'Alien' I'm only thinking in one celled amoeba's (or perhaps a few cells more).
Even if I could bring myself to think intelligent humanoid who has gone beyond their own planet then I can't accept 0.000000000001% recurring that they have made their way here.

I love the Ancient Aliens series though however the last two have really gone stupid.

407 is about Sasquatch and Yeti's being alien
408 is about Leonardo Da Vinci either being alien, was visited by aliens or he went through a Stargate to see aliens.
Aaaaargh.
People keep posting pictures of Giorgi Tsoukalis but there are two on there who are worse than him.

Glaucus · 20 Apr 2012 at 10:24

Did I say your view was invalid? Do you know what my view is? I've posted it.
It's just the use of probabilities/drake equation I have issues with nothing else. As people seem to be totally oblivious to the concept that these equations are nothing more than random questions.

And again your missing the point, it's not just that probabilities don't equal proof, we simply don't have a clue what those probabilities are.

Again your taking a side road I have no issues with.

Bulldog14 · 20 Apr 2012 at 10:34

Glaucus said:
Did I say your view was invalid? Do you know what my view is? I've posted it.
It's just the use of probabilities/drake equation I have issues with nothing else. As people seem to be totally oblivious to the concept that these equations are nothing more than random questions.

And again your missing the point, it's not just that probabilities don't equal proof, we simply don't have a clue what those probabilities are.

Again your taking a side road I have no issues with.

The issue is that we are all not on the same page with regards to how probability is to be viewed and applied. I have to say when I entered this thread I didn't think this would be such a point.

A question if you will. Do you believe in chaos theory? To be sure I mean this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_theory