St George's day - English and proud?

steve-h · 23 Apr 2012 at 16:30

webhound said:
I see a lot of people post on facebook etc that its St Georges's day and their English and proud (usually with and image of the flag and wording such as "English and proud, if you dont like our customs **** off").

lol

I didn't even know until this thread.

Superficial · 23 Apr 2012 at 16:32

Energize said:
Going on about famous inventors etc is all well and good, but the quality of the lives of the regular people of the country is far more important.

Some counter balance is always nice Energize.

things are nowhere near as bad as you are making out.

chriscubed · 23 Apr 2012 at 16:34

jamesblade said:
Talking of which, I have an English Longbow

Snip![/IMG]

Do want! How many frogs have you slain?

bam0 · 23 Apr 2012 at 16:44

Superficial said:
yes he did. the designs in use today depended in the ideas and discoveries of Farraday. in a solid paractical sense he provided the basis knowledge fundamental to the design of the DC Motor. Now if you want to talk about Tesla that's different.

On the ideas and discoveries, that does not equate to inventing the electric motor

"In 1827, Hungarian physicist Ányos Jedlik started experimenting with devices he called "electromagnetic self-rotors". Although they were used only for instructional purposes, in 1828 Jedlik demonstrated the first device to contain the three main components of practical direct current motors: the stator, rotor and commutator. The device employed no permanent magnets, as the magnetic fields of both the stationary and revolving components were produced solely by the currents flowing through their windings."

Superficial said:
Read the point made for goodness sake - how can anyone invent an activity - once and again (as if it wasnt obvious) he was responsible in large part for the technology behind it - that was all that was ever meant.

He didn't come up with the idea of using vacuum to suck up dirt, I don't see what's hard to understand about that.

Superficial said:
look here is some of the info i found:

http://www.ventnorradar.co.uk/Mag.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cavity_magnetron

http://www.radarworld.org/england.html

all list randall and boot as inventors of the cavity magnetron.

I am more than happy to admit i'm wrong but in my defense it's not that obvuious - so if you know something source it.

From the wiki link;
"It was known that a multi-cavity resonant magnetron had been developed and patented in 1935 by Hans Hollmann in Berlin,[15] and independently, in 1935, by physicist Theodor V. Ionescu in Romania.....In 1940, at the University of Birmingham in the United Kingdom, John Randall and Harry Boot produced a working prototype similar to Hollman's cavity magnetron, but added liquid cooling and a stronger cavity."

They took someone else's idea and improved it, a lot. But that doesn't make them the inventors of the magnetron. Neither though does it diminish what they did do.

PGdude · 23 Apr 2012 at 16:48

My life would be INCOMPLETE without pasties.

Superficial · 23 Apr 2012 at 16:51

bam0 said:
On the ideas and discoveries, that does not equate to inventing the electric motor

"In 1827, Hungarian physicist Ányos Jedlik started experimenting with devices he called "electromagnetic self-rotors". Although they were used only for instructional purposes, in 1828 Jedlik demonstrated the first device to contain the three main components of practical direct current motors: the stator, rotor and commutator. The device employed no permanent magnets, as the magnetic fields of both the stationary and revolving components were produced solely by the currents flowing through their windings."

LOL absolutely LOVE how you accidentally ignored the preceeding paragraph:

"The conversion of electrical energy into mechanical energy by electromagnetic means was demonstrated by the British scientist Michael Faraday in 1821. A free-hanging wire was dipped into a pool of mercury, on which a permanent magnet was placed. When a current was passed through the wire, the wire rotated around the magnet, showing that the current gave rise to a close circular magnetic field around the wire.[4] This motor is often demonstrated in school physics classes, but brine (salt water) is sometimes used in place of the toxic mercury. This is the simplest form of a class of devices called homopolar motors. A later refinement is the Barlow's wheel. These were demonstration devices only, unsuited to practical applications due to their primitive construction.[citation needed]

Jedlik's "electromagnetic self-rotor", 1827 (Museum of Applied Arts, Budapest. The historic motor still works perfectly today.[5])
In 1827, Hungarian physicist Ányos Jedlik started experimenting with devices he called "electromagnetic self-rotors". Although they were used only for instructional purposes, in 1828 Jedlik demonstrated the first device to contain the three main components of practical direct current motors: the stator, rotor and commutator. The device employed no permanent magnets, as the magnetic fields of both the stationary and revolving components were produced solely by the currents flowing through their windings.[6][7][8][9][10][11]
"

He didn't come up with the idea of using vacuum to suck up dirt, I don't see what's hard to understand about that.

Click to expand...

But I clearly said the technology behind it and NOT the application thereof

From the wiki link;

They took someone else's idea and improved it, a lot. But that doesn't make them the inventors of the magnetron. Neither though does it diminish what they did do.

Click to expand...

Ahh so we agree that they had a massive impact on the invention...that's good enough for me. Certainly worth of some praise.

Superficial · 23 Apr 2012 at 16:52

The Halk · 23 Apr 2012 at 16:54

Just out of interest, and I'm not one of the rabid anti-English Scots... How would you English lot define what is English but not British?

I think we have a national identity a lot easier up here than you lot have it down there, you're 80%+ of Britain, so to me it would seem difficult for you to distinguish between what's British and what's English.

Superficial · 23 Apr 2012 at 16:58

The Halk said:
Just out of interest, and I'm not one of the rabid anti-English Scots... How would you English lot define what is English but not British?

I think we have a national identity a lot easier up here than you lot have it down there, you're 80%+ of Britain, so to me it would seem difficult for you to distinguish between what's British and what's English.

same could be said of all British Inventions not just English/British.

it's a tough one - to turn the argument on its head - where would Scoland's own James Watt be if not for the opportunities afforded him in England and the preceeding technology of newcommens Steam engine?

Mattus · 23 Apr 2012 at 17:01

Energize said:
the quality of the lives of the regular people of the country is far more important.

Of course it is. And as a resident of England, your quality of life is probably better than that of 90%+ of the world's population.

People are so quick to moan and so slow to appreciate how good they have it.

The Halk · 23 Apr 2012 at 17:01

Superficial said:
same could be said of all British Inventions not just English/British.

it's a tough one - to turn the argument on its head - where would Scoland's own James Watt be if not for the opportunities afforded him in England and the preceeding technology of newcommens Steam engine?

I don't think that turns the "argument" on it's head. Partly because I don't have an argument to make... I genuinely wonder how English people manage to separate English and British. I'm not saying it to have a dig at England...

As for Scotland "claiming" James Watt, I believe we do, but I think every human advance stands on the shoulders of everyone that has gone before. It's daft to suggest that James Watt, or any other Scottish inventor did so in isolation - they just crystallised what others had set the scene for.

Superficial · 23 Apr 2012 at 17:04

The Halk said:
I don't think that turns the "argument" on it's head. Partly because I don't have an argument to make... I genuinely wonder how English people manage to separate English and British. I'm not saying it to have a dig at England...

I never said you were. :confused:

The argument was turned on it's head because you focused on separating Engish and British so I simply exchanged English for Scottish that's all.

As for Scotland "claiming" James Watt, I believe we do, but I think every human advance stands on the shoulders of everyone that has gone before. It's daft to suggest that James Watt, or any other Scottish inventor did so in isolation - they just crystallised what others had set the scene for.

well said.

bam0 · 23 Apr 2012 at 17:04

Superficial said:
LOL absolutely LOVE how you accidentally ignored the preceeding paragraph:

"The conversion of electrical energy into mechanical energy by electromagnetic means was demonstrated by the British scientist Michael Faraday in 1821. A free-hanging wire was dipped into a pool of mercury, on which a permanent magnet was placed. When a current was passed through the wire, the wire rotated around the magnet, showing that the current gave rise to a close circular magnetic field around the wire.[4] This motor is often demonstrated in school physics classes, but brine (salt water) is sometimes used in place of the toxic mercury. This is the simplest form of a class of devices called homopolar motors. A later refinement is the Barlow's wheel. These were demonstration devices only, unsuited to practical applications due to their primitive construction.[citation needed]

Jedlik's "electromagnetic self-rotor", 1827 (Museum of Applied Arts, Budapest. The historic motor still works perfectly today.[5])
In 1827, Hungarian physicist Ányos Jedlik started experimenting with devices he called "electromagnetic self-rotors". Although they were used only for instructional purposes, in 1828 Jedlik demonstrated the first device to contain the three main components of practical direct current motors: the stator, rotor and commutator. The device employed no permanent magnets, as the magnetic fields of both the stationary and revolving components were produced solely by the currents flowing through their windings.[6][7][8][9][10][11]

And I love how you seem to fail to understand the difference between what Faraday did and what Jedlik did in relation to how an electric motor works.
I didn't accidentally ignore the preceding part, I ignored it because it wasn't relevant, similar to the magnetron point I'm not denigrating anything Faraday did, I just think it's wrong to overstate what he did.

The Halk · 23 Apr 2012 at 17:08

Superficial said:
I never said you were.

The argument was turned on it's head because you focused on separating Engish and British so I simply exchanged English for Scottish that's all.

It's easy for us... despite seeming to punch well above our weight in the Empire days (Scottish Enlightenment) Scottish achievements are in the minority. We can say we have done this, and list a sizable list of achievements, and then Britain has done that, and list a far greater list. That's why I think it's easier for us to have national pride. While in England the line between England and Britain is much smaller...

Superficial · 23 Apr 2012 at 17:08

bam0 said:
And I love how you seem to fail to understand the difference between what Faraday did and what Jedlik did in relation to how an electric motor works.
I didn't accidentally ignore the preceding part, I ignored it because it wasn't relevant, similar to the magnetron point I'm not denigrating anything Faraday did, I just think it's wrong to overstate what he did.

Right so claiming that the guy invented the first motor and focusing on the fact that this self educated man discovered and published the fundamentals of DC motor theory is irrelevant? explaining that he was the first person to demonstrate the theory with his own demonstrable electric motor is irrelevant?

Yes jedik developed a practical design - many years after farraday proved the theory.

Energize · 23 Apr 2012 at 17:13

Mattus said:
Of course it is. And as a resident of England, your quality of life is probably better than that of 90%+ of the world's population.

People are so quick to moan and so slow to appreciate how good they have it.

Comparing ones own country to others is such a poor method of evaluation. Better than **** is not saying much. It does not change the ills we have.

Superficial · 23 Apr 2012 at 17:14

The Halk said:
It's easy for us... despite seeming to punch well above our weight in the Empire days (Scottish Enlightenment) Scottish achievements are in the minority. We can say we have done this, and list a sizable list of achievements, and then Britain has done that, and list a far greater list. That's why I think it's easier for us to have national pride. While in England the line between England and Britain is much smaller...

are you not happy with the examples in this thread? how would you define a Scots invention in any different way to an Englishmans?

my view? look at where they were born, their schooling, their background/ culture. there's your answer.

edit: i#d add to that last sentence this; there are, in my view, five clases of 'countrymen' in the UK - those that are Scots, English, Welsh and N.Irish - then there are many thousands that simply will not describe themselves as anything other than British. we're a strange lot.

mushroomsoup · 23 Apr 2012 at 17:21

As a part Englishman, without romanticism, i'll be simple and state I particularly value the following -

Bacon sandwich in the morning with tea.
Taking the dog for a walk.
Some sort of physical activity for most of the day.
Stopping off at the pub for a few beers on the way home.
Having consensual sex with my only wife.
...I think the St George flag is really great looking aswell.

EdGey · 23 Apr 2012 at 17:27

Proud as they come

The Halk · 23 Apr 2012 at 17:33

Superficial said:
are you not happy with the examples in this thread? how would you define a Scots invention in any different way to an Englishmans?

Other than one being Scottish and the other English then I would not.

Superficial said:
my view? look at where they were born, their schooling, their background/ culture. there's your answer.

That's reasonable...

Superficial said:
edit: i#d add to that last sentence this; there are, in my view, five clases of 'countrymen' in the UK - those that are Scots, English, Welsh and N.Irish - then there are many thousands that simply will not describe themselves as anything other than British. we're a strange lot.

Well, in Scotland you get Scottish people who are also British. That's me. You also get pathetic twisted irritants who claim not to be British. Denying geography is difficult, but they'll achieve it. I'm not aware of anyone in Scotland who says they're British and don't really care about being Scottish, perhaps there are some, but I don't know any.

The point I was trying to make is that it's perhaps similar for me to draw a distinction between lowland Scottish inventions and Scottish inventions as a whole. I wouldn't draw such a distinction, and I think the same reasoning must apply to at least some people in England. There must be a struggle to separate English identity from British, a struggle that Welsh and Scottish people don't have.