Tourists Banned From Dutch Cannabis Cafes

fez said:
Its not quite that simple for most people. I would much rather be on a beach in Thailand, climbing in spain, doing some Muay Thai or playing hockey than getting high or most of the other things people do for enjoyment. Getting high is a different kind of enjoyment, its cheaper than a lot of things, doesn't depend on the weather or travelling.

I get the impression you see it as a substitute for other methods of enjoying yourself whereas I simply see it as another way of enjoying myself.

I find it strage that you see it as a weakness or personality disorder if you take drugs. We are not all sitting with sad faces waiting for the next high to feel good again! :)
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That's a fair point - I guess it can enhance and add to your life. I guess I've always seen drugs as a negative aspect of society. I don't really mean to be derogatory towards people's ability to be themselves, and don't see it as a slight on them as a person - I do still, and I apologise for opinion/impression/instant reaction it creates, it's possibly a deeply ingrained prejudice - then again we all have our own prejudices we have to fight daily, I guess this is mine.

I appreciate you're not all on a cold turkey slump, and I realise that there are some people, like you, who can take certain drugs with little dependence or "need" for them, and do/can use them as purely a form of entertainment. I get that. I really do, and looking back I should have made that clearer, and we might have avoided the silly spat! :p

However, it's still an alien concept to me, but perhaps my personality trait just doesn't respond to such stimuli in the same way? I do appreciate your candour and honesty though. It's an interesting insight :) Would you stop if the long term issues were starting to manifest themselves or if it was making you ill? Like cigarettes have a clear cut proof they are bad for you, there is enough evidence out there that long term use for SOME people can be negative....
 
Freefaller said:
We already have enough of a problem of people drinking themselves into oblivion - it would be a shame to see society disappearing into a mess of being doped up.
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That's my biggest worry, the societal effects of legalising cannabis, or any drug for that manner, I don't think anyone can conclusively say that legalising drugs would benefit society overall, there would no doubt be some benefits like drunkenmaster outlined but I still feel it would be a mistake in the long run, like Freefaller says we already have people abusing alcohol at an unprecedented level, I don't see why other legalised drugs would be immune to the same problems.
 
elmuzzy66. said:
But thats the problem with current system. The law hasn't prevented people from choosing oblivion.
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I know it's tragic - another thing I don't "get". I can quite happily go out and lose the plot on the dancefloor, chat girls up and be a silly person without a drop of alcohol. And when I'm depressed, I eat, or go to the gym or go outside and just walk/run keep myself distracted. Never have I reached for alcohol as an escape mechanism - and that's the thing that worries me.

I've seen so much aggression through alcohol, and have seen so much drug related crime (owing to where I work and the info I'm privvy to) that it's a little bit sad.

Would it be better to have government regulated drugs? I have no idea. I'd worry that a lot of people would go mad initially and end up in a pile of goo on the floor for a while until the novelty wore off... or that people would get hooked on it. I think a lot of people can have a dependence on drugs and alcohol, and food for that matter owing to their psychological state... it's too hard a decision to call - and in the matters of preserving a reasonable and not too dysfunctional society, is it not best to protect it by prevent the use of such drugs? I don't know.
 
Reminds me again of manchester police complaining about extacy being stamped down on... For a while the majority of folk they had to deal with were loved up and nice...

...And I cant blame them, when it went back to dealing with drunk ******s all the time instead

:)


Would it be better to have government regulated drugs?
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Well, the evidence of what has happened in countries where they have is very, very, VERY positive.
 
shadesofgrey said:
Just have to pipe in and say that steve-h's heart is obviously in the right place. He might trip himself up with his youth every now and then but I'm sure he will be a force to be reckoned with when he is older.

I wish I held some of his pretty grown up views when I was his age anway :)

Nah, his argument is sound. Many people work out to feel good about themselves and, like you mentioned, get high on the natural drugs our body makes. Equating those that do and hurt themselves to those that smoke dope and hurt themselves are compareable. I'ld be willing to suggest that more folk hurt themselves exercising than those that do smoking pot.
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Would you rather work with someone with a black eye, or a broken arm or leg, than someone who's had a bad drug trip?

I think the argument for steroid use vs drugs would have been more sensible.

I understand that injury is more prone with a game of rugby, but people running a the gym or doing some sort of physical activity which is what our bodies were designed for is far more natural (to me) than ingesting things that make us feel funny. :)

I accept that short term smoking a joint is probably going to have negligible effects, except for those that mix it with tobacco which then means they get hooked on that, and undoubtedly then associate it with weed as well. I don't know.
 
shadesofgrey said:
And here we get back to the most sickening thing about prohibition. Drugs harm people, I dont mean the people who take them and dont get hurt...

...I mean the people who are involved from source, the workers who are treated like ****, the runners who are shot, and our armed forces who take bullets bought with criminal money.
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not sure how a couple of local lads growing a few plants in a cupboard/spare room really harms society. i understand about cocaine mules etc but that is down to prohibition in a way. if people werent prohibited then there wouldnt be the need to import.

i guess its much like how chinese people are treated like slaves making the cheap goods we all buy sometimes.

ive been in very dodgy circles for many years (not these days though, im a family man now) and in all that time ive NEVER met anyone who does these massive 'cannabis farms' we all hear about. the government will still classify 1 guy growing 4 plants as a farm. there is a lot of over exaggeration and hysteria about such things. such hysteria keeps news about corrupt government actions firmly in the back pages of the tabloids
 
embers said:
Define a few joints? I only ask this because for most and including myself, the first joint wasn't enjoyable in the slightest (paranoia, greening out) but the day after I knew it was just my body reacting to this new chemical. I then tried it the next day in the comfort of my own home and got a completely different and pleasurable effect. Many people dismiss cannabis after they have tried it for the first time because the effect is foreign to them and their brain has a hard time coming to terms with the changes that are happening in your mind. Intelligence plays a huge part too with actually determining what you are experiencing and being in control.

I can agree with what you are saying about a persons personality being strong and/or eccentric that they don't need such a high and that some people are naturally high, but why can't you have both? It's a choice, right?
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Oh absolutely - I just think it's something one has to be so careful about.

Erm, no I just didn't get much of an effect every time I've tried (I can count on one hand) - didn't get paranoid or anything, I just don't think I enjoyed the effect it had on me. I think I'm a bit of a control freak, hence why I don't tend to get plastered either.

As you say it's a choice. However, as long as it doesn't have a long term permanent effect on those around me so as to make my life more awkward then fine - I know it's selfish, but I frankly just want to be able to get on with things without having to worry or deal with people that are not functioning at their full mental capacity. :)
 
In other countries (such as Portugal) that have done trials with regulated drugs and legalisation of drugs, the outcome has been very positive. There are pros and cons with the debate of legalising it here. In my opinion, the pros massively outweigh the cons. The amount of money that could be generated for the government is huge.

Do I think it will be legalised one day? I'm not sure. I do think the public tolerance of it is becoming more relaxed, and I feel eventually the government will have to fall to the demands. I don't think it should necessarily be completely legalised - But a medicinal system such as the one in force in California, appears to be working very well. Sure there are people who scam their way into the system and only use it recreationally, but would you rather the money go to the "underground" or towards taxes?
 
lowrider007 said:
That's my biggest worry, the societal effects of legalising cannabis, or any drug for that manner, I don't think anyone can conclusively say that legalising drugs would benefit society overall, there would no doubt be some benefits like drunkenmaster outlined but I still feel it would be a mistake in the long run, like Freefaller says we already have people abusing alcohol at an unprecedented level, I don't see why other legalised drugs would be immune to the same problems.
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I guess we'd have to make the penalties of abuse far harsher? Punish people for their lack of self control? Seems a little bit of a backward step in society IMO.

As a society, do we want to strive towards enhancement or just accept the status quo and step down to the lowest common denominator? It's a tough call, and not one I'd ever want to try and sort out.
 
Marky said:
In other countries (such as Portugal) that have done trials with regulated drugs and legalisation of drugs, the outcome has been very positive. There are pros and cons with the debate of legalising it here. In my opinion, the pros massively outweigh the cons. The amount of money that could be generated for the government is huge.

Do I think it will be legalised one day? I'm not sure. I do think the public tolerance of it is becoming more relaxed, and I feel eventually the government will have to fall to the demands. I don't think it should necessarily be completely legalised - But a medicinal system such as the one in force in California, appears to be working very well. Sure there are people who scam their way into the system and only use it recreationally, but would you rather the money go to the "underground" or towards taxes?
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The one positive I do accept would be the literal over night eradication of drug related crime and cartels. A massive positive.

However, would I want to live in a society where someone injects heroin next door to me? Or someone rolls up a joint in the street? Kids doing lines of coke behind the bike sheds at school?? Hmmm... I just think that there are still too many negative aspects of drugs on society (at the moment anyway). I think we need to evolve first - we have so much housekeeping to do on ourselves before we even consider this path.
 
Just had an extra thought to add to my last reply...

I don't think it'll be properly decriminalised until better drugs testing is around. At the moment, if you've smoked within the last 3 months, there is a chance of it coming up on a drug test as positive. If it was possible to make a test like a breathalyser, which tests whether you're high or not at that point in time, then I could see it being less of a problem.

Freefaller said:
The one positive I do accept would be the literal over night eradication of drug related crime and cartels. A massive positive.

However, would I want to live in a society where someone injects heroin next door to me? Or someone rolls up a joint in the street? Kids doing lines of coke behind the bike sheds at school?? Hmmm... I just think that there are still too many negative aspects of drugs on society (at the moment anyway). I think we need to evolve first - we have so much housekeeping to do on ourselves before we even consider this path.
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Definitely agree - That would be a nightmare situation. I think society in general needs to change its ways of viewing people that do drugs. Too many people are quick to label and judge a drug user, rather than help them. The fact is addiction is a disease, and it should be treated this way. People need to help drug users off drugs, rather than labelling them an addict and throwing them in jail. Until then, I don't think it would work.
 
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Freefaller said:
I never say to people they are wrong unless they're asking me something specific - having an opinion is never wrong, misguided and foolish perhaps, but never wrong. I'll be the first to admit that I'm not always right, but I do have an opinion on most things. :)

Like everything in life, it's a balance. A person spending more time in the gym than with family is poor judgement, however getting high in a family home with kids, for me, is reprehensible. At least the person going to the gym is in a fit state of mind to deal with the kids should something go wrong or if they need attention, whereas the home smoker would arguably not be. Same goes for smoking in general indoors with kids around - disgusting.

Anyway, that's not the point I'm sure. Ok, so yes people die of heart failure, but also people drive cars drunk and under the influence of drugs. People do just die unfortunately whether they are healthy or not - sometimes nothing can stop that.

I think your argument of gym vs drugs is just not germane to this debate. Had you said steroid user vs drug smoker then we'd have a better matched argument.
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yeah, people who smoke around kids are annoying and idiots. i will admit that. there are bad parents and good parents in any forms of society. my son has never even seen us even smoke a ciggy as we do it when he is doing other things (one of us will slip off so he cant see us. i dont want him to ever see me smoke tobacco/weed as its not a good thing for him to see - i dont want to be a bad influence on him. we know we wont smoke forever anyway)

i will admit to smoking at my house but that is in the conservatory and my son isnt allowed in there. he is 9mths and is in bed before we have a J anyway.

i dont see how its any different from people who go drinking with their kids. and if i need to i can level out, unlike drunk people. if anything i find that 'paranoia' (i actually think its more social awareness - ive never had paranoia from weed) will make me listen to the baby monitor (or baby spy as we call it ;)) more than if i havent had a smoke. i guess it makes me realise i can be mentally slower so i need to be more aware

i have smoked over half my life and never seen any ill affects. i am very much a family man and spend as much time with my son as possible.

i guess many people see the annoying street chavs and assume everyone is like that. it doesnt help the overall image of cannabis with society.
 
Robbo said:
Yup, that would be it. You'll have to grow up one day. :)
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You'll have to open your mind one day and stop restricting what you do based on laughable, petty viewpoints.

shadesofgrey said:
Just have to pipe in and say that steve-h's heart is obviously in the right place. He might trip himself up with his youth every now and then but I'm sure he will be a force to be reckoned with when he is older.
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Come again? :p If you actually mean me, could you point out where I've tripped myself up?

Freefaller said:
Unfortunately, others get hooked on it and develop a dependence on it, just like alcohol. Except alcohol is legal and easily obtainable.

We already have enough of a problem of people drinking themselves into oblivion - it would be a shame to see society disappearing into a mess of being doped up.
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Weed is easily obtainable too though (just usually via criminal gangs who'll push other dangerous substances too), and is massively used. Apparently use in places like Portugal stayed the same post decriminalisation.

Robbo said:
Do the people who desperately want it legalised think it ever actually will be?
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Some will, some wont... strong generalising question. People will smoke regardless... Only this way, it'll be taken out of the hands of unregulated, organised gangs and in the hands of legitimate businesses who'll supply it to those who want it, legally. Also people wont be getting criminal records while negatively affecting nobody.
 
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Freefaller said:
Couldn't agree more, and I don't understand why I ever did it... :( Though nicotine does have a couple of benefits, but the other toxins within a cigarette are so overwhelming that it's beyond measure for any for/against argument. On that we are 100% agreed!

Ok, so weed then - fine. I'm no experts on different types of crops or different genetic mutations of cannabis plants etc... however, from the little research and few items I have read, smoking it still hasn't been mitigated of any long term effects. Again, as I said most educated people are able to enjoy it from time to time with 0 effect to anyone or anything around them. Unfortunately, others get hooked on it and develop a dependence on it, just like alcohol. Except alcohol is legal and easily obtainable.

We already have enough of a problem of people drinking themselves into oblivion - it would be a shame to see society disappearing into a mess of being doped up.
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i think after thousands of years of people smoking, that any affects really should be concretely known by now ;)

something else to consider. places like amsterdam will allow you to buy and test thousands of strains (of which there are literally tens of thousands of strains and various combinations of indica or sativa or hybrids). each can have massive differences on the user in terms of what they bring to the table.

smoke some very mild FLO... negligible affects due to the low THC. a nice mellow smoke

northern lights... always seems to make me love music more than other strains and often makes me much more creative. ive lost count of how many film concepts ive come up with on this stuff

then go to the borderline stupid strains with massive levels of THC. this is the stuff that the daily mail etc get up het up about. it IS strong and can knock you on your back side. i dont get why people like these strains.

so, an open marketplace allows people to see which strains they like and choose various strengths to suit there level.

not everyone drinks special brew, there is a myriad of options ranging from 1% right up to 50% for beer!

i spent a long time trying to find strain so weak i could substitute it for tobacco. if i had a lab i could have spliced strains to come out with something very weak that might have helped people stop smoking tobacco.
 
Robbo said:
Do the people who desperately want it legalised think it ever actually will be?
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nope. the daily mail crowd and general ignorance will always stop it. lots of people have big views on things they do not understand, unfortunately.

i just want it legalised so i dont feel like a criminal and would far sooner buy from a chemist than go see people at special times etc i would like the options of which strain i smoke rather than just getting an unknown entity.
 
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