President Obama Endorses Gay Marriage

Scotty123 · 10 May 2012 at 14:24

spudbynight said:
Well on this topic alone the fear that many have is that should this law be passed then cases of discrimination would be raised in the ECHR. I have already read of gay people keen to push for this the second "gay marriage" is introduced.

I personally believe it is naive to believe that should "gay marriage" be introduced the gay lobby would stop at that point. I have heard Peter Tatchell himself state that this would be the next step.

As I've said so many times now, I am of the opinion churches should not be forced to marry.

I agree with your first paragraph. There will be a vocal minority who will use ECHR to push for that. I am strongly against that. I am hoping common sense and respect prevails. I said practically the same thing a few pages back.

I dislike Peter Tatchell. However, I have heard him saying the opposite on BBC Big Questions. Saying he doesn't want churches to be forced. Could you say where you heard this please?

spudbynight · 10 May 2012 at 14:25

estebanrey said:
But what's stopping the ECHR doing that now? I don't understand how the law not currently existing stops the ECHR from forcing Churches to marry gay people and why introducing gay marriage would make them act????

As things stand there is no "gay marriage" in this country. You can't press a claim of discrimination against a body for not offering something that in the eyes of the law does not exist.

If "gay marriage" is introduced then there is the scope within law for a claim for discrimination to be brought.

estebanrey said:
Peter Tatchell is militant gay man whom I mostly disagree with, are you saying he speaks on behalf of all gay people?

No, he doesn't speak for all gay people on the subject of marriage either. However it doesn't require all gay people to agitate and bring claims of discrimination.

Did it require all gay people to sue that B&B?

estebanrey · 10 May 2012 at 14:26

spudbynight said:
No, that is a debate not empirical evidence.

So you don't believe the Crusades or the Spanish Inquisition happened? What about the raping of Children by Cathlolic priests all over the world or the fact that AIDs is rife and killing millions in Africa because of the Church's 'teachings'?

Burying your head in the sand much? Unless of course you accept all those things and the Catholic Church's culpability but think they aren't as bad a man sticking his penis in another man's bottom?

spudbynight · 10 May 2012 at 14:26

Scotty123 said:
I dislike Peter Tatchell. However, I have heard him saying the opposite on BBC Big Questions. Saying he doesn't want churches to be forced. Could you say where you heard this please?

I heard it from him in person at a talk he gave in Hove.

krooton · 10 May 2012 at 14:27

spudbynight said:
No, that is a debate not empirical evidence.

A good debater can argue either side. I think that Hitchens was a wonderfully skilled debater - it doesn't make him right. I personally believe that had Fry and Hitchens argued the opposite side they would also have won.

What atrocities have homosexuals committed that are cumulatively worse than all the bad things the Catholic Church have been linked to?

ikillbears · 10 May 2012 at 14:27

good stuff

Sefirosu · 10 May 2012 at 14:28

NO ONE IS FORCING CHURCHES TO CARRY OUT OR RECOGNIZE GAY MARRIAGE.

They should be though.

Marriage is not a church institution, it's a legal one. Churches should be obliged to obey the law.

estebanrey · 10 May 2012 at 14:30

spudbynight said:
I heard it from him in person at a talk he gave in Hove.

A homophobe attending a Peter Tatchell talk, that sounds believable.

spudbynight · 10 May 2012 at 14:31

estebanrey said:
So you don't believe the Crusades or the Spanish Inquisition happened? What about the raping of Children by Cathlolic priests all over the world or the fact that AIDs is rife and killing millions in Africa because of the Church's 'teachings'?

The question asked was "The Catholic Church has been way more detrimental to the world than homosexuals for sure."

It wasn't "do you think the Catholic Church is without fault."

Is English your first language?

estebanrey said:
Burying your head in the sand much? Unless of course you accept all those things and the Catholic Church's culpability but think they aren't as bad a man sticking his penis in another man's bottom?

I am well aware of the mistakes the Catholic Church has made thought the years. I am confident I actually know far more about them than anyone on here with the exception of Castiel and possibly a couple of others.

What I do believe is that these things are greatly overshadowed by the good the Church has done in the world.

However I don't think President Obama mentioned any of this.

spudbynight · 10 May 2012 at 14:32

estebanrey said:
A homophobe attending a Peter Tatchell talk, that sounds believable.

Please don't insult me you racist.

estebanrey · 10 May 2012 at 14:33

Sefirosu said:
They should be though.

Marriage is not a church institution, it's a legal one. Churches should be obliged to obey the law.

A church is not a business not subjected to the same laws.

I wouldn't support for example, people being forced to allow gay couples to stay in their houses against their will (The B&B incident excluded as that was a business).

Now whether the Church should be considered a 'business' is another matter but that would also involve them having to accept women Bishops (which wouldn't be a bad thing) but also force them accept Muslims as vicars too.

spudbynight · 10 May 2012 at 14:33

krooton said:
What atrocities have homosexuals committed that are cumulatively worse than all the bad things the Catholic Church have been linked to?

What good acts have homosexuals committed that are greater than the good acts carried out by the Catholic Church?

As we are talking about bad actions carried out in the name of the Catholic Church I think it is only fair for you to list the good actions carried out in the name of homosexuality.

Sefirosu · 10 May 2012 at 14:35

estebanrey said:
A church is not a business not subjected to the same laws.

I wouldn't support for example, people being forced to allow gay couples to stay in their houses against their will (The B&B incident excluded as that was a business).

Now whether the Church should be considered a 'business' is another matter but that would also involve them having to accept women Bishops (which wouldn't be a bad thing) but also force them accept Muslims as vicars too.

K, then take away their legal right to marry anyone.

Scotty123 · 10 May 2012 at 14:35

spudbynight said:
I heard it from him in person at a talk he gave in Hove.

Really? Were you attending a gay pride?

Just joking. It just seems odd he's said a different thing on TV and then apparently what you say.

I just searched for his website and he lists his views on many things, including this

“The government plans to maintain this prohibition. This is not only homophobic but also an attack on religious freedom. While no religious body should be forced to conduct same-sex marriages, those that want to conduct them should be free to do so."

estebanrey · 10 May 2012 at 14:35

spudbynight said:
Please don't insult me you racist.

Where did racist come from? You made the silly "I don't hate gay people I just hate what they are" argument which makes you a homophobe. It's not an insult just a statement of fact.

Embrace it and defend your position instead of trying to justify your ** Please fully star out swear words ******.

spudbynight · 10 May 2012 at 14:36

zhx said:
good stuff

What, the usual lolreligion crew? Posting links as an act of vicarious intelligence?

spudbynight · 10 May 2012 at 14:37

estebanrey said:
Where did racist come from?

I think you are as much as racist as I am a homophobe.

estebanrey said:
You made the silly "I don't hate gay people I just hate what they are" argument which makes you a homophobe. It's not an insult just a statement of fact.

Embrace it and defend your position instead of trying to justify your *******.

Can you link to where I have said anything about hating gay people please.

estebanrey · 10 May 2012 at 14:39

spudbynight said:
The question asked was "The Catholic Church has been way more detrimental to the world than homosexuals for sure."

It wasn't "do you think the Catholic Church is without fault."

Is English your first language?

I am well aware of the mistakes the Catholic Church has made thought the years. I am confident I actually know far more about them than anyone on here with the exception of Castiel and possibly a couple of others.

What I do believe is that these things are greatly overshadowed by the good the Church has done in the world.

However I don't think President Obama mentioned any of this.

You've avoided the question (again). Do you think the sum of all the evil the Catholic Church has been responsible for (regardless of the good things) outweighs the negativity (in your eyes) of homosexuality?

Your claim was there was no evidence the Catholic church has done anything as bad as sodomy which is clearly not true. You asked for examples of the Church doing bad things, now we've given them to you you're trying to dodge the issue.

spudbynight · 10 May 2012 at 14:40

Scotty123 said:
Really? Were you attending a gay pride?

Just joking. It just seems odd he's said a different thing on TV and then apparently what you say.

I just searched for his website and he lists his views on many things, including this

“The government plans to maintain this prohibition. This is not only homophobic but also an attack on religious freedom. While no religious body should be forced to conduct same-sex marriages, those that want to conduct them should be free to do so."

He said it at this event :

http://www.allsaintshove.org/changingattitudesussex.htm

It is 2 streets away from where I live. It wasn't much trouble for me to attend and listen politely. I even took the time to write to the Vicar in advance stating my view that it was inappropriate for this talk to be held at a Church without inviting someone to give the other side of the argument.

What he (Tatchell) said (from memory) was "gay people should be allowed to get married in any church and this would be the next step in the struggle for equality"

krooton · 10 May 2012 at 14:42

spudbynight said:
What good acts have homosexuals committed that are greater than the good acts carried out by the Catholic Church?

As we are talking about bad actions carried out in the name of the Catholic Church I think it is only fair for you to list the good actions carried out in the name of homosexuality.

Doing a bunch of good things doesn't absolve a bunch of bad things.

If the Catholic Church treads on the extremes of both good and bad, which should they be allowed to dictate what happens to a group of people who are essentially 'world neutral' by comparison?