President Obama Endorses Gay Marriage

boxman2000 said:
Marriage is a biblical concept and is an institution established by God - the bible makes that perfectly clear. Simply looking at the relationship between God and Israel is the easiest example – also Christ and the Church.
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So the concept of marriage didn't exist before the OT, are you sure about that? I think you'll find that the cukture of marriage pre-dates recorded history so I don't see how any religion can lay claim to it.

Just because the Bible says it invented it doesn't mean it's true, the Bible also claims the Earth is 6000 years old and was brought into existence by magic by a sky fairy and that we all evolved from Adam and Eve.

The Bible and truth aren't regulary bedfellows.
 
spudbynight said:
Anyway - the Catholic Church gave us Da Vinci and Botticelli - the homosexuals gave us "Glee"
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Leonardo Da Vinci was allegedly charged twice with sodomy but the charges were dropped due to lack of evidence.

Edit: Also, Da Vinci never married. Never had any children. He was disgusted by the act of sex with women when he wrote: "The act of procreation and anything that has any relation to it is so disgusting that human beings would soon die out if there were no pretty faces and sensuous dispositions." He was famous for his study of the male form, sketching young attractive men and even apparently adopting them and raising them as proteges.

His sexuality is very much in question.
 
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surely in a time of massive overpopulation in the world gay people should be seen as a bastion of logic?

also, anyone see the irony of the catholic church against gay marriage but hiding their gay paedophile priests?

some people need to get out more and meet more people. one of my best mates is gay and i wish there was more people like him on the planet, it would be a much nicer place

also, staight lads (myself included) do you realise that more gay men == more ladies for the rest of us. and gay also means lesbian too. do you want them stopping too? i dont! ;)

"Marriage is a biblical concept and is an institution established by God - the bible makes that perfectly clear. Simply looking at the relationship between God and Israel is the easiest example – also Christ and the Church." - really? so people didnt get married over 200 years ago. really?!?! you believe this?!?! people were getting married well before the church stuck they nose in. all you needed before was a ring, no vicar etc. the act of marriage was around in pegan times and before

"Back on topic - God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve" - prove it. god, adam or eve have never been proved to exist.
 
krooton said:
This is what I find weird and hypocritical about certain religious people.

Sin is bad. People shouldn't sin. Thus you shouldn't associate yourself with sinners. Much like I wouldn't be friends with a thief, murderer or general A-hole.

Many religious people who conveniently overlook the more socially acceptable sins, such as the living out of wedlock, blasphemy or sex before marriage. Sure if you had strength in your convictions, you wouldn't associate with sinners, unless you are actively trying to street them on to "the right path".
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I've quoted this before but anyway:
"The greatest single cause of atheism in the world today is Christians, who acknowledge Jesus with their lips
and walk out the door, and deny Him by their lifestyle. That is what an unbelieving world simply finds unbelievable." - Brennan Manning
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Your observations, as sad as they are, are pretty accurate apart from one key point.

You say that ‘religious people... shouldn’t associate [themselves] with sinners’ but what did Jesus do? He made the religious people of the day go crazy because Jesus spoke to publicans, sinners and harlots, something that just wasn't done. One of Jesus' titles is Friend of Sinners (Matt 11:19 and Luke 7:34).

Religious people have a lot to answer for in putting people off in 1,000,001 different ways, but just because some people have the wrong idea doesn’t mean everyone does.

I believe the #1 reason why people (religious, Christians or whatever you want to call them) are bad examples and contradict the bible is simply because they don’t read and put into practice the bible.

At the end of the day the bible tells us that EVERYONE has sinned and fallen short of the standard God expects of us. Infact the bible puts homosexuals and all liars in the same category, along with holding grudges against people, stealing and adultery – sin is sin.

Noah was a Drunk
Elijah was Suicidal
Peter was a Coward and a Liar
Jacob was a Deceiver
Rahab was a Prostitute
Samson was a Womanizer
Moses had a Self-esteem problem
David was an Adulterer/Murderer
The Samaritan Woman was Divorced (a lot)

How mightily God used these individuals who were simply willing to serve Him - even though they messed up, badly at times.

The solution is, and will always be accepting Jesus as your Lord and Saviour.
 
I don't really trust anything a politician says during the run up to an election. Wasn't Obama promising to close Guantanamo during the last election? Whatever the big ticket items are, they'll be using it to their advantage....until they're elected and then it's a case of "wait....I said what?" :rolleyes:

To be honest it all makes me sick. I live in one of the most liberal communities in the US and they lap up everything Obama (or any of the Dems) do....and just put blinkers on to all the stuff he's back-tracked on or actually made worse. Of course, that's the same with "supporters" of any party I know. It's pathetic. I usually have to drop off Facebook during any kind of election period....the retarded comments drive me insane.
 
estebanrey said:
I would support the right of a racist to not let black people into his home. I would wholly disagree with his views and argue against them but I would defend his rights to hold them and act on the in his private property.

Businesses do not have this right however I would not support any discrimination there. I was against the B&B owners for that very reason.

You cannot force or legislate people into thinking a certain way and trying to only creates more resentment.
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Churches are subsidised by the tax payer. Tax doesn't discriminate, why should churches as properties and organisations be able to?
 
boxman2000 said:
You say that ‘religious people... shouldn’t associate [themselves] with sinners’ but what did Jesus do? He made the religious people of the day go crazy because Jesus spoke to publicans, sinners and harlots, something that just wasn't done. One of Jesus' titles is Friend of Sinners (Matt 11:19 and Luke 7:34).
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Isn't comparing yourself to Jesus also a sin?
 
spudbynight said:
LLBDTiberio - a question for you as a gay man.

How would you feel if civil partnerships were opened to all and marriage was only permitted in religious ceremonies between a man and a woman.

In essence there would be non religious marriages (civil partnerships) which were available to all and religious marriages (marriage)
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I understand your sentiment, but what about gay Christians who wish a religious ceremony? Not all Christians/Priests believe that marriage should only be between a man and a woman, my local protestant priest has no problem with marrying me and my boyfriend (unfortunately he is not Danish so we cannot marry later this year when gay marriage will be legal in Denmark). I'm not religious so would be fine with this but would rather that everyone get civil partnerships and those who wish a religious ceremony can then get one afterwards provided the Priest/Catholic church is ok with it.
 
Hatter The Mad said:
Churches are subsidised by the tax payer. Tax doesn't discriminate, why should churches as properties and organisations be able to?
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Hey I'm not sticking up for the Church in any way, I'm an athiest and belive in the seperation of Church and state and hate the fact my tax money is being spent on this legalised brain washing centres.

I was simply stating the fact that under the law they are not regarded as businesses and hence any change to the law that allows gay marriage wouldn't then logically lead to churches being forced into holding gay marriages ceremonies.
 
realBabelfish said:
"Marriage is a biblical concept and is an institution established by God - the bible makes that perfectly clear. Simply looking at the relationship between God and Israel is the easiest example – also Christ and the Church." - really? so people didnt get married over 200 years ago. really?!?! you believe this?!?! people were getting married well before the church stuck they nose in. all you needed before was a ring, no vicar etc. the act of marriage was around in pegan times and before
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Erm, again, your definitions perhaps need a bit of work. 'Religion' has been around for a bit longer than 200 years. Even the protestant church has been around in its current guise since the 1500's so that makes 500+ years - your argument holds no weight.

I'm not denying that people had their own ceremonies in which the promise between man/wife remain faithful to each other, whether pagan or any other religion. Sorry but marriage has been around for thousands of years. Of course as I said earlier, tradition and culture have shaped the ceremony into what it is today, this is more recent and yes probably in the last 200 years.

Technically marriage is the union of man and woman, i.e. sex. (Matthew 19:5). The example of the woman caught in adultery in John chapter 8 isn’t necessarily that she was ceremonially married (i.e. public wedding service) but physically married and had multiple partners.
 
estebanrey said:
Isn't comparing yourself to Jesus also a sin?
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I didn't compare myself to Jesus but by definition, a Christian is a 'Christ follower'. The bible teaches us that when we give our lives to Christ that we actually have Him living in us, in the person of the Holy Spirit.

Christians don't compare themselves to Jesus as what comparison is there to make? Jesus lived a sinless, perfect life... I, and nobody before/since has not.

This is why being a 'Christ follower' is so important - it's not to make anyone more religious than anyone else, but to demonstrate the love that God has for us all in that He sent His only Son to die for all our sins, whether a 'little' white lie, murder, homosexuality or adultery.
 
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boxman2000 said:
I didn't compare myself to Jesus but by definition, a Christian is a 'Christ follower'. The bible teaches us that when we give our lives to Christ that we actually have Him living in us, in the person of the Holy Spirit.

Christians don't compare themselves to Jesus as what comparison is there to make? Jesus lived a sinless, perfect life... I, and nobody before/since has not.
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Well that's untrue because Mary also lived a sinless life (if you believe the Bible story). The immaculate conception created Mary without sin so should could give birth to Jesus.
 
boxman2000 said:
Noah was a Drunk
Elijah was Suicidal
Peter was a Coward and a Liar
Jacob was a Deceiver
Rahab was a Prostitute
Samson was a Womanizer
Moses had a Self-esteem problem
David was an Adulterer/Murderer
The Samaritan Woman was Divorced (a lot)
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Being a drunk - Something you have control over.
Being suicidal - Not technically a sin until you actually kill yourself, something you again have control over.
Being a liar - You have control.
Being deceptive - You have control.
Being a ho - You have control.
Lacking self-esteem - When was this ever a sin?
Adultery and murder - You have control.
Divorce - Well marriage is a two-way thing, so you don't have complete control over it.

You don't control what gender you are attracted to, you just are what you are.

Make bad choices and decisions, sure, just ask for redemption and mean it. You cannot be redeemed for something you have no control over.
 
boxman2000 said:
I didn't compare myself to Jesus but by definition, a Christian is a 'Christ follower'. The bible teaches us that when we give our lives to Christ that we actually have Him living in us, in the person of the Holy Spirit.

Christians don't compare themselves to Jesus as what comparison is there to make? Jesus lived a sinless, perfect life... I, and nobody before/since has not.

This is why being a 'Christ follower' is so important - it's not to make anyone more religious than anyone else, but to demonstrate the love that God has for us all in that He sent His only Son to die for all our sins, whether a 'little' white lie, murder, homosexuality or adultery.
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You're right - anyone who does actually believe in that or the bible is desperately delusional.
 
estebanrey said:
Well that's untrue because Mary also lived a sinless life (if you believe the Bible story). The immaculate conception created Mary without sin so should could give birth to Jesus.
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This is the reason why religious threads just don't work because people talk about subject they know a little, but not a lot about.

Catholicism teaches that Mary was sinless, I am not a Catholic and there is a very clear definition between that and Christianity. For one Christians do not pray to Mary as the bible tells us that 'there is only one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus'.

The immaculate conception didn't create Mary without sin, if that was the case then why would she need a saviour?

Luk 1:46 And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,
Luk 1:47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

With all due respect, please pick up a King James bible and take a read of the book of John, that book sums things up perfectly from Jesus' birth to death, explaining who He was and those in His life.
 
boxman2000 said:
Erm, again, your definitions perhaps need a bit of work. 'Religion' has been around for a bit longer than 200 years. Even the protestant church has been around in its current guise since the 1500's so that makes 500+ years - your argument holds no weight.

I'm not denying that people had their own ceremonies in which the promise between man/wife remain faithful to each other, whether pagan or any other religion. Sorry but marriage has been around for thousands of years. Of course as I said earlier, tradition and culture have shaped the ceremony into what it is today, this is more recent and yes probably in the last 200 years.

Technically marriage is the union of man and woman, i.e. sex. (Matthew 19:5). The example of the woman caught in adultery in John chapter 8 isn’t necessarily that she was ceremonially married (i.e. public wedding service) but physically married and had multiple partners.
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my bad, i meant 2000 years.
 
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