Distance Selling Regs - Question on returns

Mercenary Keyboard Warrior · 17 May 2012 at 16:55

estebanrey said:
You better tell Wragge & Co then, they are the one that make the claim. They must be a **** legal firm eh?

http://www.wragge.com/alert_6130.asp

No they were right originally, what he added was wrong, it was a part interpretation of some of the facts.

Like he said you cant get return P&P back. You MAY get it back, it depends on what they have put in the T&Cs and only if they have complied with what they need to in the T&Cs. If they fail on either of those points you CAN get it back.

Its not black and white basically. There is provision for them to be able to exclude it, but its an "opt in" type situation where they need to comply in order to mean they are not liable. Its hardly difficult, the link I posted many posts back is for businesses on what they need to do to exclude themselves from being liable.

estebanrey · 17 May 2012 at 17:44

OK Rob, then how would you interpret this sentence from Wragge & Co's site?...

Retailers conducting online sales may recover the cost of the products being returned, provided they draft their terms and conditions appropriately.

I don't read that as, they have to refund you. I read it as, they may charge you a fee.

Mercenary Keyboard Warrior · 17 May 2012 at 18:20

estebanrey said:
OK Rob, then how would you interpret this sentence from Wragge & Co's site?...

I don't read that as, they have to refund you. I read it as, they may charge you a fee.

Yes they may charge you a fee, assuming that have it in their T&Cs which have to be in a non editable form supplied in advance. That is referring to where they are picking up the cost for the return and is to do with if they have also missed out the fact that youhave to actually return the goods.

Its simple, here is the relevant part of the text from the retailers guide on the OFT site for DSR.

"Information to be provided once consumers have
decided to buy
If you provide pre-contractual information in a form that does
not allow it to be stored or reproduced by the consumer, such
as during a phone call or on a website, then you must confirm
in writing, or in another durable medium (such as e-mail or
fax) accessible to the consumer that can be kept for future
reference and which cannot be edited. We do not consider
that information on a website is durable as it can be altered
after the consumer has accessed it.
In addition to the above information, consumers should also
be told:
• when and how to exercise their rights under the DSRs to
cancel including
– for goods – whether you require goods to be returned by
the consumer and if so who will pay for their return"

Its not open to interpretation, they need to do this, if they do not they are in breach of the DSR and therefore cannot rely on T&Cs which attempt to breach DSR.

Mercenary Keyboard Warrior · 17 May 2012 at 18:26

Here is the relevant section in it entirity from Wragge.... Its also very clear, but you have to take the whole thing not just one sentance

"Retailers don't, however, have to bear the cost of the return. Retailers conducting online sales may recover the cost of the products being returned, provided they draft their terms and conditions appropriately.

Under the Regulations, the consumer is only required to retain possession and take reasonable care of any goods which they are returning following cancellation. They are not actually obliged to return them, unless the retailer has required them to do so in their terms and conditions. However, if that vital term has been included, either the consumer must bear the cost of returning the product, or the retailer may make a charge, not exceeding the direct costs of recovering it"

So they have to draft their T&Cs correctly as I have said over and over, they have to do something. IE they need to act, this spells it out.

Then in the section on physically returning it mentions if the VITAL TERM HAS BEEN INCLUDED", again there needs to be action by the retailer in their T&Cs to clarify how the process will happen.

I am not arguing they can get out of it, but I am stating the fact that without action to comply with the actual wording of the DSR they may well be by default liable.

Mercenary Keyboard Warrior · 17 May 2012 at 18:30

estebanrey said:
OK Rob, then how would you interpret this sentence from Wragge & Co's site?...

I don't read that as, they have to refund you. I read it as, they may charge you a fee.

Actually reading that again I am not even sure what they are trying to say, they talk of the cost of the PRODUCT not the postage.

I cannot actually think what they are referring to, the have to refund the original amount in full no one is arguing that. So what PRODUCT are they charging for?

The Halk · 17 May 2012 at 18:32

It's rather frustrating that Rob had to go to that effort when it had been said already in the thread several times exactly what the position was.

It's important in these type of threads that people stop pulling nonsense out of the air and posting it as fact.

Mercenary Keyboard Warrior · 17 May 2012 at 18:37

My last word on it, again straight from the DSR. I suggest anyone who hasn't read it in it entirty does so, if your an online seller you need to comply with the DSr or the customer has upto 3 months to reject under DSR.

Last bit, specifically on returns

"Returning goods
Only if it is covered in the contract and the written information
can you require the consumer to pay for the cost of returning
the ordered goods. If the consumer then fails to return the
goods, or sends them at your expense, you can charge them
the direct cost to you of the return, even if you have already
refunded the consumer’s money. You are not allowed to
make any further charges, such as a restocking charge or an
administration charge.
If you do not include these details in the required written
information then you cannot charge anything. You can never
require consumers to pay the cost of returning substitute
goods. If the goods are faulty or do not comply with the
contract, you will have to pay for their return whatever the
circumstances."

Surely thats clear enough in black and white from the OFTs own site.

Tefal · 17 May 2012 at 18:45

scratch said:
Evening peeps,

Quick question for you on the returns part of the DSR. I ordered a couple of items from an online retailer last week which included free shipping in the price. Neither of the items arrived in time for me to be able to use them at the weekend, so I had to buy alternatives at a local shop and now wish to return the original items for a refund.

I've contacted the retailer to begin the returns process and although they have no problems accepting the goods back, their T&Cs state that any returns on items which were shipped with their free delivery (which is everything as they don't have an option to upgrade to a paid-for service ) are subject to a £3-5 fee to cover costs!

Now I can understand a retailer not refunding the original postage cost if I had paid for it, as they have no obligation to do so under the DSR, but surely as all their prices already include 'free' shipping they aren't allowed to charge this fee?! It's going to cost me a fiver to post the items back to them anyway so I don't want to lose another fiver just because they fancy charging a fee they're not entitled to.

Am I right in thinking they're being cheeky here?

restocking fee?

chriscpritchard · 17 May 2012 at 18:49

robskinner said:
My last word on it, again straight from the DSR. I suggest anyone who hasn't read it in it entirty does so, if your an online seller you need to comply with the DSr or the customer has upto 3 months to reject under DSR.

Last bit, specifically on returns

"Returning goods
Only if it is covered in the contract and the written information
can you require the consumer to pay for the cost of returning
the ordered goods. If the consumer then fails to return the
goods, or sends them at your expense, you can charge them
the direct cost to you of the return, even if you have already
refunded the consumer’s money. You are not allowed to
make any further charges, such as a restocking charge or an
administration charge.
If you do not include these details in the required written
information then you cannot charge anything. You can never
require consumers to pay the cost of returning substitute
goods. If the goods are faulty or do not comply with the
contract, you will have to pay for their return whatever the
circumstances."

Surely thats clear enough in black and white from the OFTs own site.

But they're expecting the OP to pay postage AND this fee...

The Halk · 17 May 2012 at 18:58

brainiac ghost said:
But they're expecting the OP to pay postage AND this fee...

Yep... on which the thread has established two things.

It goes against the DSR.

He'll struggle to get his return postage back, but the fee is laughable.

Good on Uhtred for going to Trading Standards - apathy is what allows companies to get away with it.

chriscpritchard · 17 May 2012 at 19:04

The Halk said:
Yep... on which the thread has established two things.

It goes against the DSR.

He'll struggle to get his return postage back, but the fee is laughable.

Good on Uhtred for going to Trading Standards - apathy is what allows companies to get away with it.

Ah yeah, sorry, misread rob's post, thought he was saying it was fine for them to charge both!