Are you a feminist?

[Angilion]

I am struggling to think of many occupations where that is a relevant skill...

It just seems that some people find it difficult to actually articulate why gender differences actually matter as far as work goes. Possibly because, in reality, they don't.

I'd say that gendered difference can matter a lot and quite often, but sexed differences only matter in some jobs. Specific jobs in sex work, modelling and acting are the only ones that I can think of.

For example, if you were running a club and had advertised a male stripper, it's almost certain that it wouldn't go down well with the majority of your customers if you hired a female stripper instead. If you were hiring someone to model bras for a clothing company, their sex would matter. It's generally reasonable to hire an actor of a specific sex to play a specific role - can you imagine, for example, Brad Pitt playing Queen Elizabeth I?

 

[snowdog]

Definitely not, women work differently to men, yes we're all human but there's a reason some things women are better in and some things men are better in.

Yes they should have equal rights, obviously, also I reckon there should easily be more women in higher positions, but it has to be their choice and they don't have to be picked because they are women, pick the best person for the job regardless of gender, not many choose to pursue many ''men'' branches and vice versa.


Only 2 out of 28 people in my class if Computer engineering are women.
Same way not many men pick any ''health and beauty'' studies...

 

[RDM]

Definitely not, women work differently to men, yes we're all human but there's a reason some things women are better in and some things men are better in.

What things though?

Angilion came up with some very specific circumstances but even they end up as gender unimportant career wise (models, strippers, actors).

 

[snowdog]

What things though?

Angilion came up with some very specific circumstances but even they end up as gender unimportant career wise (models, strippers, actors).

I know some male models personally too, from secondary school...

It's all relative, one of my female friends ordered a male stripper for her 21st b'day...

I don't see anything wrong with ''hired beauties'', male or female... The average club has got more sexy dancers than men yeah, but there's always a couple of male ones bartenders...

 

[Tefal]

Why were they doing this? Well the author interviewed some of the contestants and found that they wanted to be famous, as they thought this was the best way they could earn money, and they wanted to live a life of being popular. I'm sure they aspired to people such as Katie Price. And what's the easiest way for a woman to become famous?

if getting my pecs out could make me a millionaire i ****ing well would.

the fact that a woman just has to take off her bra to have men throw millions of pounds at her doesn't scream "objectified victim" to me.

 

[Angilion]

Definitely not, women work differently to men, yes we're all human but there's a reason some things women are better in and some things men are better in.

Same question that I asked the last person to make that statement of faith - state what you think they are and why you think they're inherent rather than socialised.

Obviously, I know that you can't because there is no reasoning behind your belief - it's a faith-based position. It's a rhetorical question to demonstrate that to anyone who might be reading and hasn't realised you have nothing behind your belief.

I say that a person's sex is only genuinely relevant to specific jobs in sex work, modelling and acting. If you think any different, here's your chance to show your evidence. Remember that you need to prove absolute differences, not trends, and that you must show that they are inherent and not socialised.

I'll bring up Mary Somerville again as an example of the difference. Her parents were genuinely worried about her health because she studied maths, natural philosophy (combined sciences, essentially) and classical ancient languages. At the time, it was quite widely believed in Britain (and many other places) that subjects like that were so masculine that it was dangerous for a female person to study them and impossible for her to learn them to any great degree. Her parents, like you, believed that male and female people were inherently different and therefore suited to different things. As a result, they were genuinely worried that their daughter had a strong interest in manly things. They weren't oppressing her by not hiring tutors in those subjects for her - they were protecting her. They didn't think female people were inferior, just different. Like you do.

Mary Somerville was determined and brilliant and she had help from various people who didn't think the same way (for example, one of her uncles taught her Latin when she told him she wanted to learn it). She also had her own money, enough to do what she wanted. So she became a noted mathematician and scientist anyway.

But how many women who could have done, didn't?

Any, and I mean any, ideas about sexed and gendered restrictions have a self-fulfilling, stifling effect. They're unfair and wrong, especially when they're presented as being sexed, i.e. absolute. Any time that anyone says that people of different sexes have different abilities, they are coercing people, especially children, into conforming to those restrictions.

 

[paradisiac]

if getting my pecs out could make me a millionaire i ****ing well would.

the fact that a woman just has to take off her bra to have men throw millions of pounds at her doesn't scream "objectified victim" to me.

this, this was my point completely. the women don't do it because they feel society forces them to or they feel its the best they 'could' do. they do it because its easy money and they are the kind of people that crave attention, hence why they aspire to be famous and not a good/great model, actress, musician etc, just famous.

 

[Angilion]

I know some male models personally too, from secondary school...

It's all relative, one of my female friends ordered a male stripper for her 21st b'day...

I don't see anything wrong with ''hired beauties'', male or female... The average club has got more sexy dancers than men yeah, but there's always a couple of male ones bartenders...

I'd like to point out that I very explicitly stated that I was referring to specific jobs in sex work, modelling and acting, not sex work, modelling and acting in general. Not that all sex workers, models and actors should be a specific sex but that specific jobs within those areas can be sex-specific, e.g. if you're making a documentary series on British monarchs you'd have a genuine reason to specify male actors to play the kings and female actors to play the queens.

 

[Angilion]

this, this was my point completely. the women don't do it because they feel society forces them to or they feel its the best they 'could' do. they do it because its easy money and they are the kind of people that crave attention, hence why they aspire to be famous and not a good/great model, actress, musician etc, just famous.

I don't crave attention, but if I could make lots of money getting my kit off in front of a camera I'd be naked before they could turn the camera on. Sure beats working for a living.

People who talk about women being objectified should stop objectifying women and stop thinking that other people are like them. They're projecting their own silly prejudices onto other people.

When you look at a picture or video of a nude woman, do you see an object or a woman? I'm betting that you see a woman. Otherwise, you'd be enjoying an Argos catalogue far too much (*) I don't understand people who see an object, but I wish they'd shut up about it and stop pretending that everyone else is like them.



* I'm going to make a comment about pictures of household appliances and double polaroids and see if anyone gets the reference.

 

[paradisiac]

I don't crave attention, but if I could make lots of money getting my kit off in front of a camera I'd be naked before they could turn the camera on. Sure beats working for a living.

no, but then would you say you aspire to be famous? this was my point. yes I think most people would get their kit off for enough money, but then following it up with 'im doing it coz I want to be famous' is the part that makes it about attention.

E: I suppose my overall point is, women are not treated as sex objects and forced to do these photos, they decide to do it and enjoy it.
yes there is the underground sex trade where women are forced to do it, but this is not the same at all.

 

[fozter]

Wow I must be a right mug, can I actually get my boyfriend to go to the shop/clean the drains and move heavy stuff? I am owed 18 months of arduous labour - how big a pyramid could I make with that?

 

[anything I don't mind]

Why are some professions male dominated ? is it because males are generally superior? is it because females are generally inferior? no. It is because males are more likely to be interested in that profession and have a better ability for that profession. There is nothing stopping females from entering male dominated professions and we have seen historically male dominated professions being tackled by females. But there is no sexist reason behind the lack of females in certain professions. Those arguments no longer exist, it has now turned in to females wanting to use those historic arguments to their advantage.

 

[RDM]

Why are some professions male dominated ? is it because males are generally superior? is it because females are generally inferior? no. It is because males are more likely to be interested in that profession and have a better ability for that profession. There is nothing stopping females from entering male dominated professions and we have seen historically male dominated professions being tackled by females. But there is no sexist reason behind the lack of females in certain professions. Those arguments no longer exist, it has now turned in to females wanting to use those historic arguments to their advantage.

Except of course male dominated professions tend to have men making the hiring decisions and they tend to hire people just like them. Which is one of the reasons why male dominated professions are so hard for women to get in to. At the same time we also have a whole bunch of girls growing up being told by people that engineering is for boys or IT is for boys etc. The same goes for the very much female oriented professions, nursing, primary school teaching etc. There is nothing stopping men being good in those professions, but there is a sometimes subtle, sometimes not, pressure not to go in to them.

 

[anything I don't mind]

Male dominated professions are not difficult for females to get in to because the hiring decision is done by a sexist male. Good example of this is IT because generally the people making the hiring decision are females from HR with the help of IT management. But yet IT remains largely male dominated profession. But by no means are females less capable of IT. But there are just not as many females that go in to IT. Not because of some historic sexist reason or because society manipulates them out of it. It is only because men and women are different and thus end up doing different types of jobs. IT is a fairly new profession so all those historic arguments are not valid. Now they are only excuses.

 

[RDM]

Male dominated professions are not difficult for females to get in to because the hiring decision is done by a sexist male. Good example of this is IT because generally the people making the hiring decision are females from HR with the help of IT management. But yet IT remains largely male dominated profession. But by no means are females less capable of IT. But there are just not as many females that go in to IT. Not because of some historic sexist reason or because society manipulates them out of it. It is only because men and women are different and thus end up doing different types of jobs. IT is a fairly new profession so all those historic arguments are not valid. Now they are only excuses.

So what exactly about women makes them worse than men at IT? (and how did Grace Hopper manage so well?)

 

[Six7th]

Not because of some historic sexist reason or because society manipulates them out of it. It is only because men and women are different and thus end up doing different types of jobs.

But what difference makes a man more suited to a career in IT as opposed to a woman?

The problem is we have it engrained in our society that some jobs are more suitable for men than women (for example, IT, engineering, plumbers etc). Women will grow up being told this and will simply not have the aspiration to enter these professions.

 

[anything I don't mind]

How could you have possible misunderstood me to such an extent? I even specifically said that "But by no means are females less capable of IT." My point was that they are just as capable but they are not predominately in IT because they are different and do not gravitate towards that sort of job. Even after a few generations of feminist based education and propaganda and single parent (mom only) families pushing pro feminist culture down the necks of young girls and males for that matter. But yet we still don't see many female scaffolders or road workers or rubbish collection etc. Why is that ? I would agree it is not because females are not capable of doing those jobs, but because females are different and do not want to do those jobs like men do.

 

[RDM]

In what way are they different? Also what about the women in IT? Are they not different?

 

[paradisiac]

for me I do kinda agree that men and women are different in terms of things like I.T, not physically, but more mentally. most women by default do not enjoy fiddling with technology, they just want something to work, whereas men by default like to see what everything does. I don't by any means think that this is true for ALL men and ALL women, but on the whole, I think it true.


please don't flame me for this opinion

 

[linktoinsanity]

I don't really like the term "Feminist." Feminists I know are the total opposite, as in they see women as being superior, which is pointless as it just turns the problem the other way round.

"Equalist" would be a better term!

Also as pointed out by paradisiac above me, women and men have different needs, so should therefore be treated differently. We for example should not have urinals removed from toilets because we can pee standing up!