Miss Holocaust Survivor......the winner is????

[Collider]

They havnt turned the 'holocaust' into a pageant in the slightest bit whatsoever though, they have made a pageant for 'holocaust SURVIVORS'.

This is a celebration of the lives of the actual people that SURVIVED the holocaust, it is NOT a celebration of the 'holocaust' itself.

I am not sure why you are shouting, the links clearly show this was a pageant in which holocaust survivors, judged on various criteria, competed to win.

No one said it was a celebration of the holocaust.

It's not much of a celebration of surviving it either however, its just not right. I hope the women who took part in it feel positive about it however, as they shouldn't be made to feel bad, but anyone organising this needs to wake up and think seriously about what they have done.

 

[Craterloads]

I don't think Castiel is racist or an anti-Semite in any way shape or form.

I've had the odd disagreements with Cas on numerous topics, and regardless of who was correct i always find his posts fair and balanced.

The funny part of this is the accusations are coming from one of the most vile racists on this forum, on the same league as DirtyDog and his ilk.

 

[Castiel]

Show me one link from the Israeli press then. Also answer the 'macabre' question, or are you incapable of doing that?

I have already done so Bhavv....It is pointless posting the Hebrew language papers so a few of the ones that print in English and have an online presence will have to do:

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world...geant-crowns-miss-holocaust-survivor-1.447737

http://www.jta.org/news/article/201...t-survivors-beauty-pageant-sparks-controversy

http://www.timesofisrael.com/not-your-average-beauty-pageant/

Did you realise that many of the participants never actually survived a concentration camp, they simply escaped from the country of their birth, such as Romania or Poland or lost their families in the camps, that is not to say that their experiences were any less than those than the camp survivors, but I was wondering if it had any influence on their acceptance of the invitation.

 

[bitslice]

Double yawn

You asked for Israeli press, I gave you Israeli press.

I'm sorry that a Jewish newspaper chose to print an article disagreeing with you, they should have consulted you first on what to think, after all they are just being told what to think about their own history.

Still refusing to back up your comment on Castiel? How unlike you.

 

[bhavv]

I am not sure why you are shouting, the links clearly show this was a pageant in which holocaust survivors, judged on various criteria, competed to win.

No one said it was a celebration of the holocaust.

...do you really have no idea why people would find turning the holocaust into a pageant a little bit macabre...

Replace 'celebration' with 'pageant'.

This event was not a pageant about the holocaust.

I wasnt shouting, I was highlighting the best I could about the event being dedicated to survivors of the holocaust, rather than being dedicated to the holocaust itself as you think it is.

 

[Collider]

I think this is about right though I know it's been quoted before I think it sums it up for me..the thing is misguided. It's not wrong to have a celebration of life and take some survivors out for a good time and also get them to tell their stories, but they could have done that with a funded lecture tour or school visits or an audio archive or all manner of things that would celebrate them while remembering what the context of the celebration is.

Gal Mor, editor of the popular Israeli blog "Holes in the Net," said Thursday's pageant was well-intentioned but misguided.

"Why should a decayed, competitive institution that emphasizes women's appearance be used as inspiration, instead of allowing them to tell their story without gimmicks?" he wrote. "This is one step short of 'Survivor-Holocaust' or 'Big Brother Auschwitz.' It leaves a bad taste. Holocaust survivors should be above all this."

 

[bhavv]

I'm sorry that a Jewish newspaper chose to print an article disagreeing with you, they should have consulted you first on what to think, after all they are just being told what to think about their own history.

I have already done so Bhavv....It is pointless posting the Hebrew language papers so a few of the ones that print in English and have an online presence will have to do:

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world...geant-crowns-miss-holocaust-survivor-1.447737

http://www.jta.org/news/article/201...t-survivors-beauty-pageant-sparks-controversy

http://www.timesofisrael.com/not-your-average-beauty-pageant/

These reports didnt even consult anyone, they simply copied the same quote from whichever one was written first, i.e. every article is based on nothing but one person - Collete Avital's opinion. Hardly professional journalism. Oh right, the last one was different ...

However, Shimon Sebag, the director of the event, defended the decision to hold the pageant, and told the Hebrew daily Yedioth Aharonoth: “The organization decided to hold the competition… to show that the Holocaust survivors, with all the history they have experienced, are still women who want to celebrate themselves, have fun, and live… If someone raises an eyebrow, let them. We are doing this with a good attitude and pride.”

Sure its from the director of the show, but I agree with that nonetheless.

but they could have done that with a funded lecture tour or school visits or an audio archive or all manner of things that would celebrate them while remembering what the context of the celebration is.

I dont think that the women would have enjoyed doing any those things. Hardly any women at that age would even want to do a pageant, but 14 of them did want to do this. Its meant to be a fun party type event for the survivors, not boring educational work.

 

[Castiel]

Thank you. I dont think Castiel will want to learn or ever admit that he is wrong though.

Sorry Bhavv, I though I had answered this, I couldn't have posted it properly.

I disagree with redz that is all......

The term Macabre is entirely appropriate as the Holocaust itself deals with the massacre of millions of people, sometimes in the most horrific of circumstances. The definition deals not only with the act itself, but also the involvement or portrayal of those acts.....thus any event that refers to the holocaust in a such a controversial way could justifiably be termed as macabre.


Macabre: (adj) Disturbing and horrifying because of involvement with or depiction of death and injury.


Looking through some of the blogs and so on, the reaction amongst the Israeli public is actually very mixed.....some are supportive and think it is great, others thing quite the opposite to varying degrees.

Basically opinion falls either in the Celebration of Life camp, or the Trivialisation of Suffering camp.

Much like the reaction on this forum.

 

[Collider]

I don't think it would be wrong to enable people doing 'boring educational work' (which i tend to define as telling their amazing stories to people so a wider understanding of the horrors of the holocaust can be spread along with a celebration of the lives of the survivors, this might seem boring to you but I doubt it is to them, I should think they want to be heard) to also have a party and celebrate their lives without making it about a beauty pageant.

On a related note, why wouldn't women want to do a pageant at their age, your opinion seems a bit contradictory really. Why shouldn't they enjoy themselves or have a pageant if they are old ladies. The issue is that someone took their looks and their stories and declared one a winner..even in your arguments about this surely you must have pause to think that is simply weird. On so many levels.

My issue with this is the clash of pageant involving beauty with scoring people on their holocaust stories. Nothing about not wanting some perfectly nice old ladies to have a good evening out. But really, these things don't mix.

I'd use this as an example of something where a couple of old ladies keep their dignity while offering an insight into their lives and experiences.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/jun/29/conversation-life-after-age-100

They probably got a kick out of doing it but they haven't had to enter a beauty competition to give us an insight into old age. And holocaust survivors shouldn't have to either.

 

[bhavv]

The term Macabre is entirely appropriate as the Holocaust itself deals with the massacre of millions of people, sometimes in the most horrific of circumstances. The definition deals not only with the act itself, but also the involvement or portrayal of those acts.....thus any event that refers to the holocaust in a such a controversial way could justifiably be termed as macabre.

Macabre: (adj) Disturbing and horrifying because of involvement with or depiction of death and injury.

This event isnt dedicated to people dying in the holocaust though, its dedicated to people who survived the holocaust.

This pageant is in no way whatsoever trying to 'portray' the holocaust, a group of survivors speaking about their personal life experiences is not in anyway supporting of celebrating that particular experience.

By the way, I've now searched through 5 jewish forums and this news article isnt even being discussed on a single one, so I cant believe that it is such a significant issue among jews.

Macabre: (adj) Disturbing and horrifying because of involvement with or depiction of death and injury.

So according to you, is everything that can be defined by this as Macabre wrong and offensive?

 

[Collider]

This event is dedicated to people dying int holocaust though, its dedicated to people who survived the holocaust.

This pageant is in no way whatsoever trying to 'portray' the holocaust, a group of survivors speaking about their personal life experiences is not in anyway supporting of celebrating that particular experience.

I think there is some misinterpretation here.

The holocaust is such a massive, macabre, dreadful event, that having a beauty pageant about it where people are marked on their stories 1 vs another with a bit of how they look thrown in, seems really very inappropriate and not very celebratory.

 

[bitslice]

So if Jews directly related to this period of history are condemning this and Castiel is vaguely agreeing with them to a lessor extent, then he is at the most 'illogical' and not 'anti Semitic' as you keep trying to say.

And answer my point about Castiel being, at the most illogical and not anti Semitic, you can't just assassinate someone's character because you think it makes a good debating point.

Still refusing to answer?

Still refusing to back up your comment on Castiel? How unlike you.

Anyone would think you were refusing to answer an accusation of defamation



///

Why don't you find a Jew who agrees with this (other than the organisers), because you appear to be going against the popular Jewish opinion on this subject.

So a fail on that one too, OK


....and it's bedtime.

 

[bhavv]

Anyone would think you were refusing to answer an accusation of defamation

I already answered that.

Why don't you find a Jew who agrees with this (other than the organisers), because you appear to be going against the popular Jewish opinion on this subject.

By the way, I've now searched through 5 jewish forums and this news article isnt even being discussed on a single one, so I cant believe that it is such a significant / popular issue among jews.

 

[Castiel]

I dont think that the women would have enjoyed doing any those things. Hardly any women at that age would even want to do a pageant, but 14 of them did want to do this. Its meant to be a fun party type event for the survivors, not boring educational work.

I think the point many are making is that they could have been honoured and their lives celebrated without the beauty pageant or the scoring of their respective survival experiences in a contest.

It is the fact that they crowned one the winner, as if surviving the holocaust was a competition to be won that many people find inappropiate..

IBy the way, I've now searched through 5 jewish forums and this news article isnt even being discussed on a single one, so I cant believe that it is such a significant / popular issue among jews.

maybe you would like to post the forums for us.....

 

[Redz]

I disagree with redz that is all......

Then you misconstrue what my argument was. The term macabre would be apt to refer to the holocaust itself. But as the event was dedicated to the survivors of that event, who didn't die, it would be slightly imprecise to use the term macabre in relation to the pageant.

 

[bhavv]

maybe you would like to post the forums for us.....

Top 5, actually the first two pages now of 'jewish forums' on google.

 

[Robosapien]

I don't have a problem with this. Live life, be flippant, get naked, whatever.

Lol at everyone thinking 'the holocaust survivors should show some decorum'. **** off.

 

[bhavv]

I think the point many are making is that they could have been honoured and their lives celebrated without the beauty pageant or the scoring of their respective survival experiences in a contest.

They could have done a lot of things, however they chose to do this, and there were actually over 100 women who applied for it.

Another quote from elsewhere on this topic:

I think some people are going to get ****ed at everything. If these ladies chose to do this and were comfortable doing so, then who is anyone to say they shouldn't.

My opinion now - get over it. It happened, it was a good positive event for all the women involved, and the people who are trying to make a celebration of these womens lives look like something 'macabre' need to liven up / take a chill pill.

I hope they do more of these now, if only to annoy people who could possibly find it offensive or 'macabre'.

This topic isnt even an issue in the jewish community, they dont even seem to care about it the slightest bit since none of them are even discussing it.

 

[Collider]

I am not sure they should show decorum in and of themselves, I don't think I'd care if they ran about waving their underwear around their heads.

I would however think an event where holocaust survivors took part in competitive underwear waving and then got marks out of 10 for who had the worst experience during the holocaust, slightly weird and inappropriate.

 

[Castiel]

Then you misconstrue what my argument was. The term macabre would be apt to refer to the holocaust itself. But as the event was dedicated to the survivors of that event, who didn't die, it would be slightly imprecise to use the term macabre in relation to the pageant.

The event referred to the Holocaust itself, and the relevant experiences of the people involved...it done so partially under the guise of a competition effectively on who had the best (worst) experience...to use the backdrop of such a horrific event in such a way, to some people, including some holocaust survivors themselves, it is macabre, basically I think the disparity between the subject matter (the holocaust and it's survivors experiences) and the way it is presented (by using a trivial contest whereby those experiences contribute to wining the contest) gives it an atmosphere that seems somewhat grim......I agree with them.

You do not have to agree and I don't expect everyone to agree on what is a subjective matter.