Astrology And Other Pseudoscientific Beliefs

colzboppo · 27 Jul 2012 at 20:59

Most people I know are quite rational and very sceptical of anything that can't be proven or explained through direct evidence. I myself tend to keep a more open mind, I have a curious nature and theories are constantly popping into my head.

I'd like to think one day I could maybe make a discovery of my own or have something I believe in vindicated by someone else, but I don't spend a lot of time trying to convince others what to believe in. Theres a lot of stuff we still don't understand or can't explain in the universe, the human mind or around us in nature afterall.

For some people these beliefs simply 'fill in' gaps in their conviction about how things work which are otherwise inexplicable, when it flies in the face of science and fact however, that is when you start to think this person must have forgotten their medicine that morning/lifetime.

Angilion · 28 Jul 2012 at 00:47

I think it's inaccurate to call any of those things pseudoscientific. They're not even badly faking a pretence at being scientific. They're just faith in various kinds of magic. Besides, almost all believers are ignorant of their own faith anyway. If you think I'm being harsh, find someone who believes in astrology and ask them what version of astrology they follow, whether or not they account for the precession of the equinoxes and why they do or don't. So far, I haven't found a believer who understands the questions, let alone one who has answers.

Auras are the only one that I would consider to be pseudoscientific, since there are auras of a sort around people - heat, for example. So the believers are taking a real thing and running away with it to lala land - pseudoscience.

d_brennen · 28 Jul 2012 at 00:56

LEE929394 said:
Are there any scientists that are religous too?

Yes, there are. If there were ever any way to prove the existence of "God", it wouldn't disprove all that science has observed. Who is to say the fabric of all existence isn't "God"?

Believing in a magic man in the sky watching us all the time is class A lunacy though, IMO

Angilion · 28 Jul 2012 at 01:14

LEE929394 said:
[..]
Are there any scientists that are religous too?

Yes. As long as you understand that the two are seperate areas, you can be religious and be a scientist. Not many people are because the two tend to result in fundamentally different ways of thinking, but some people manage it.

It would even be possible for a theist to regard science as holy work. If they regard the universe as a creation of their god(s), they might regard trying to understand more about how it works as a way of deepening their appreciation of it and thus of their god(s). Or they might decide that understanding how the universe works is the purpose their god(s) intended for humanity. The universe as a sort of learning activity centre on a divine scale could be fitted into a "god(s) as parent(s)" religious view.

Castiel · 28 Jul 2012 at 01:21

LEE929394 said:
Science backs up atheism,

No it doesn't.....Science is agnostic, it has nothing to say about God.

LEE929394 said:
the theory of evolution cannot ever be compatible with the concept of god.

It is perfectly compatible...evolution doesn't preclude a God, it has nothing to say on the matter of the creation of the Universe....it doesn't even deal with the origin of life, only the evolution of species from a universal common ancestor (not forgetting DNA et al).

LEE929394 said:
Are there any scientists that are religous too?

Are you being serious?......Some of the greatest scientists that ever lived were and are people of Faith......

and shall I remind you what you wrote in your OP:

LEE929394 said:
(please DON'T let this be a discussion about religion!)

maybe you need to take your own advice.

KatanaDV20 · 28 Jul 2012 at 01:26

Nothing annoys me more than Astrology - people flock to it like sheep.

I have many friends who beleive in it - but they get VERY uncomfortable when I ask them "Why is YOUR horoscope so different when you read it in several different magazines??"

And we all know our next fav question - why dont all these psychics keep winning the lotto every week

Justintime · 28 Jul 2012 at 02:02

LEE929394 said:
It's hard to write a post like this, i'm bound to upset someone

Who cares, they're wrong and potentially mentally ill so i'd not worry about upsetting them

Gackt said:
They are no more ridiculous than the beliefs held by those who associate with mainstream religion. They are as deluded as eachother.

This is what i don't get when people talk down to others who believe in 'other' stuff when they themselves are caught up in the biggest lie/swindle of them all.

kwerk said:
I suspect a huge percent of people are neurologically incapable of scientific/logical/rational/critical thought. Their brain is simply not wired for it and no amount of education can help them. They might believe in science but they don't understand it, it's just another type of magic.

Most people simply believe in magic.

That kind of actually makes a lot of sense :eek:

LOAM · 28 Jul 2012 at 10:01

To the OP, think of an object you own, something that you love dearly. Perhaps it has sentimental value or belonged to a dead relative. Now give me that item, by chance I have an identical replica that (importantly I have marked to distinguish). I'm going to mix them up and place both objects on the table and smash one with a hammer. Do you care? Your going to get an item back but it might not be the same one you gave me.

My question, are you happy to risk that you lose the item you hold dear, that watch that you dead relative wore?. If you would feel remorse for that object of indeed not risk me smashing it then your mind is as irrational as your mothers.

FutileBreadMachine · 28 Jul 2012 at 10:35

I can't believe they still print horoscopes in newspapers. It's 20 ******* 12 you idiots! Time to leave the cave!

LOAM · 28 Jul 2012 at 10:52

The cave is your mind, how exactly do you leave it?

LEE929394 · 28 Jul 2012 at 11:10

LOAM said:
To the OP, think of an object you own, something that you love dearly. Perhaps it has sentimental value or belonged to a dead relative. Now give me that item, by chance I have an identical replica that (importantly I have marked to distinguish). I'm going to mix them up and place both objects on the table and smash one with a hammer. Do you care? Your going to get an item back but it might not be the same one you gave me.

My question, are you happy to risk that you lose the item you hold dear, that watch that you dead relative wore?. If you would feel remorse for that object of indeed not risk me smashing it then your mind is as irrational as your mothers.

Interesting thought experiment, i personally wouldn't feel remorse as they are just inanimate objects!
If something is of sentimental value i think it's purely for association and for nostalgia which gives the object value.

As long as you don't think the object has magical value then i don't think i'd be irrational feeling a little upset about it but remorse? Definitely not!

LOAM · 28 Jul 2012 at 11:25

Sentimental value is irrational though, the objects are identical. You value is because you (we) project the personality of the relative or memory and love onto a non recipricating inanimate object. It similar to thinking an antique chair "has seen history" its a mind error and irrational but truth be told we probably would still be living it trees (or not at all) if we weren't wired like this.

estebanrey · 28 Jul 2012 at 12:30

LOAM said:
To the OP, think of an object you own, something that you love dearly. Perhaps it has sentimental value or belonged to a dead relative. Now give me that item, by chance I have an identical replica that (importantly I have marked to distinguish). I'm going to mix them up and place both objects on the table and smash one with a hammer. Do you care? Your going to get an item back but it might not be the same one you gave me.

My question, are you happy to risk that you lose the item you hold dear, that watch that you dead relative wore?. If you would feel remorse for that object of indeed not risk me smashing it then your mind is as irrational as your mothers.

Are you seriously trying to conflate human emotion with mysticism?

The emotion of nostalgia can be explained scientifically, what mediums claim to be doing can't.

Sudden · 28 Jul 2012 at 13:07

Regarding Astrology at least, I am slightly conflicted.

The rational part of me says that there is no possible way for it to be true and it's impossible to predict what will happen etc.

However, my grandfather used to plot horoscopes (as a hobby. Only did it for family and close friends etc.) using date and place of birth and star charts. His predictions have never been wrong and they were fairly specific (enough to cause me doubt at least). 20 years before it happened for instance, he predicted a change of location for my mom in a particular direction relative to place of birth. He stated which year it would happen in, and it did. Or he's predicted a change of job for my dad, again, down to the year and a good 10+ years before, and it did. Generally his predictions were around the lines of change of location, change of job, good period, bad period, but always down to the year and always correct.

I have thought about predictions leading to movements towards that goal, but that can be discounted by the fact that a few of the occurrences have been completely unexpected until the moment they actually happened.

This is not to say I believe in all astrology, but it has caused me doubt some stuff and leave me confused.

OhEsEcks · 28 Jul 2012 at 13:11

I'm sure if I predicted something it would stick decades down the line.

Sudden · 28 Jul 2012 at 13:16

OhEsEcks said:
I'm sure if I predicted something it would stick decades down the line.

So if you predicted that someone specific you know (by name) will change their job in 2036, it will happen?

OhEsEcks · 28 Jul 2012 at 13:21

Sudden said:
So if you predicted that someone specific you know (by name) will change their job in 2036, it will happen?

What's to say it wouldn't? If he'd been a bit more specific about the individual and what job they would switch to and where in the country they ended up with the job, I'd be impressed. But saying "I see a change of career in your future" is as wishy washy as Mystic Meg and the hordes of other astrology weirdos. And what's to say he wasn't putting the idea into peoples heads. Or that people felt the need to carry out the ideas put into their heads, which all boils down to suggestion. Nothing astrological.

Sudden · 28 Jul 2012 at 13:28

OhEsEcks said:
What's to say it wouldn't? If he'd been a bit more specific about the individual and what job they would switch to and where in the country they ended up with the job, I'd be impressed. But saying "I see a change of career in your future" is as wishy washy as Mystic Meg and the hordes of other astrology weirdos. And what's to say he wasn't putting the idea into peoples heads. Or that people felt the need to carry out the ideas put into their heads, which all boils down to suggestion. Nothing astrological.

How much more specific about the individual could he be? :confused:

He told my dad that he would change his job.

Regarding suggestion, as I stated in the post, it was not something which was planned in the least. For my dad for instance, he had been with the company for a good 18 years, and changed jobs only because the company merged with another and his post was no longer necessary. This merger began happening only about a year before it was completed and yet the prediction was made 15-20 years before.

Regarding movement, for my mom, it was a very odd prediction when he made it somewhere in 1990's since he said it would be in a northwest direction from place of birth and in 2004. We had always lived in India but my mom was born in Cairo, so the prediction seemed very weird. By mid 2004, nothing had happened so it didn't look like it was happening. Suddenly then my mom was offered a transfer to London and it was all completed within a few months.

OhEsEcks · 28 Jul 2012 at 13:45

Sounds like a lot of coincidences more than anything else and people projecting onto those coincidences. You'd have thought he'd have predicted something more useful though, like last nights lottery numbers. But apparently astrologists only seem to know that you're going to change jobs, meet a tall dark handsome stranger, someone is going to come into or out of your life, or you're going to come into money (even though they won't give you the lottery numbers). And it doesn't matter what you say to these people who believe the nonsense, about the likes of cold reading and suggestion, HOW DID THE ASTROLOGIST KNOW?!?

You should have had your Grandfather apply for the James Randi challenge.

Sudden · 28 Jul 2012 at 13:54

OhEsEcks said:
Sounds like a lot of coincidences more than anything else and people projecting onto those coincidences. You'd have thought he'd have predicted something more useful though, like last nights lottery numbers. But apparently astrologists only seem to know that you're going to change jobs, meet a tall dark handsome stranger, someone is going to come into or out of your life, or you're going to come into money (even though they won't give you the lottery numbers). And it doesn't matter what you say to these people who believe the nonsense, about the likes of cold reading and suggestion, HOW DID THE ASTROLOGIST KNOW?!?

You should have had your Grandfather apply for the James Randi challenge.

Once or twice is coincidence. Happening for numerous people, with predictions about what will happen 10+ years later, correct to the year, without a single error, does not sound like coincidence to me.

How in the world does cold reading predict what will happen 10 years down the line? Cold reading can judge what has happened to you or try and guess something about the past; not about what will happen. If it was generic and said that it will happen 'at some point', then yes, it's probably a guess. Stating the year however does kind of change things.