Ivybridge-E set for Q3 2013

[Dirtyganker]

I think orcvader meant price/performance wise haswell will be the gamers choice, much like if you only play games and only have 1 or even 2 graphics cards then price/performance wise vanilla ivy/sandy is plenty good enough

Well to be honest I was more interested in his comments about a 'doomed chip' and you're right in that even SB has still got a lot of mileage in it.

I think you've done the same thing and made assumptions about his post

Erm no, my response is actually in the context of everything he's written in this thread so far and from the perspective that his expectation might get turned on it's given that no one knows anything about either Haswell or IB-E other than what has already been confirmed, which isn't much.

overly defensive 2011 owner anyone?

(for the record I have a 3930k too in case you think I'm trying to get at 3930k users)

ROFLMAO hardly as I have gen 1 Core i5-750 and Core i7-950 still going strong, SB Core i5-2500K and Core i7-2700K, an SB-E 3930K and an IB 3770K. My investment in PC tech couldn't be more diverse (except maybe if I had an AMD chip in there somewhere but I'm not expecting the temperature in hell to drop significantly any time soon lol)

I bought what I bought because it met my criteria at the time of purchase and for no other reason. I buy kit so frequently that there is no point in me waiting around for the next best thing as I will just end up acquiring it when it's released anyway. Thats just a perk of my job.

 

[Dirtyganker]

I meant gamers choice, I'm sure IB-E will do well in other markets such as HD editing/VM/folding/rendering, but I'm looking it at a price/performance view for gamers. I'm just saying if you're only gaming this seems a bit silly to buy...

Tell me, how do you know what the price/performance is going to be like when you don't have ANY information on either?

 

[Orcvader]

OK, so maybe I used the wrong term, it's not exactly doomed, it will still do well for those that needs the extra cores, but performance wise I'm expecting IB-E to be like how IB was to SB, maybe with a few extra cores. They'll still be architectually the same. I'm just guessing at the moment, I know there's no information on either IB-E or Haswell at the moment, but it's just my opinion, no need to take it seriously.

Besides, I could be totally wrong on Haswell as well, at the moment it seems Intel is concentrating more on the onboard GPU...

 

[Martini1991]

OK, so maybe I used the wrong term, it's not exactly doomed, it will still do well for those that needs the extra cores, but performance wise I'm expecting IB-E to be like how IB was to SB, maybe with a few extra cores. They'll still be architectually the same. I'm just guessing at the moment, I know there's no information on either IB-E or Haswell at the moment, but it's just my opinion, no need to take it seriously.

Besides, I could be totally wrong on Haswell as well, at the moment it seems Intel is concentrating more on the onboard GPU...

As they should.
AMD dominate in that area.

 

[andybird123]

Tell me, how do you know what the price/performance is going to be like when you don't have ANY information on either?

oh come on, it's pretty safe to assume that new 2011/X79 CPU's are going to be on the expensive end of the scale

enthusiast vs. mainstream intel pricing is always bonkers

I only got a 3930k because it was £200 on christmas eve and no ones else bid on it

 

[Dirtyganker]

oh come on, it's pretty safe to assume that new 2011/X79 CPU's are going to be on the expensive end of the scale

enthusiast vs. mainstream intel pricing is always bonkers

I only got a 3930k because it was £200 on christmas eve and no ones else bid on it

Compare like with like - ie 4 cores - and then no it is not. Of course you pay a premium for more cores, who wouldn't expect that? You want extra cores for nothing?

You can buy an X79 motherboard and a i7-3820 for a very modest premium over an equivalent Z77 board with a 3770K. Compare something like the Asus RoG Micro-ATX Gene boards - the X79 board is quite a bit more expensive but the 3820 is cheaper than a 3770K, so you end up paying a premium of about 60 quid in the end. In fact when you look at the Asus R4F and a M5F then it's the same price.

Now to me thats actually pretty competitive, especially when you consider what you're getting with X79 and the fact that SB-E cpus tend to clock extremely well with very little effort compared to IB - you can barely touch the BCLK on IB and SB-E doesn't suffer for a little more voltage in the same way that IB does.

Hang on, I think I just talked myself into selling my 3770K ....

 

[Dirtyganker]

OK, so maybe I used the wrong term, it's not exactly doomed

Far from it I'd say. Intel have done a pretty good job of pitching their CPUs at the right parts of the market to date and are clearly paying attention to where their competition is coming from and what they need to do about. I have a hunch that they may have a better idea about that than either you or I. After all thats why they are worth billions of dollars and (I think I can safely say) that you and I aren't.

it will still do well for those that needs the extra cores, but performance wise I'm expecting IB-E to be like how IB was to SB, maybe with a few extra cores.

.... which you'd have to say isn't exactly a revelation in the same way that the SB was to the 1st generation offerings, as the advise to anyone with SB at the moment is that it's not worth the cost of upgrading to IB. But then even the upgrade from 1st gen to IB is still questionable in some instances.

I'm just guessing at the moment, I know there's no information on either IB-E or Haswell at the moment, but it's just my opinion, no need to take it seriously.

Besides, I could be totally wrong on Haswell as well, at the moment it seems Intel is concentrating more on the onboard GPU...

Don't worry, I won't be taking you seriously.

Now you've had a chance to consider what the strengths are likely to be in Haswell then I'm sensing that the penny has dropped.


(I do love a good U-turn ... done it myself a few times)

 

[FoxEye]

Good, I'll enjoy the replacement chip 18 months from now. Excellent life out of a socket 2011 board if you buy one now. Just think about how many games will be multithread by then

How much do you know about programming?

Because to use a many-core CPU effectively, you're going to have to make leaps and bounds into parallel programming.

Games can spawn worker threads for small things, but they don't get used as much as the main game logic thread, which remains a linear, serially executed thread.

The reason being that games are all about interactions. This is why games are not a good fit with parallel programming.

All I'm saying is, don't expect games to suddenly start being able to use 8 cores effectively in the next year or so.

 

[Dirtyganker]

PCIE 3.0 that actually works would be a start

My GTX670 works fine in PCI-E 3.0 mode on my R4E, but if you bought a ropey X79 board then thats your lookout.

 

[Dirtyganker]

All I'm saying is, don't expect games to suddenly start being able to use 8 cores effectively in the next year or so.

And you don't think that Windows 8 will influence this to any degree?

AMD 8 core CPUs are starting to look a little more attractive under Windows 8 due to it's re-written thread handler. The OS is a factor in this as well.

 

[FoxEye]

And you don't think that Windows 8 will influence this to any degree?

AMD 8 core CPUs are starting to look a little more attractive under Windows 8 due to it's re-written thread handler. The OS is a factor in this as well.

Forget Windows for a second. You have a ball bouncing off some rocks. It's no good if one thread knows about the ball, another thread knows about rock A, and a third thread knows about rock B. To have interactions between the ball and the rocks, the thread working on the ball has to be able to check the state of the rocks. If the state of the rocks is unclear, because another thread is moving the rocks around, then you have a problem.

The is a more fundamental problem than just which OS you happen to be using.

 

[MADMAN]

oh yeah forgot about windows 8 being optimised for AMD

 

[Martini1991]

And you don't think that Windows 8 will influence this to any degree?

AMD 8 core CPUs are starting to look a little more attractive under Windows 8 due to it's re-written thread handler. The OS is a factor in this as well.

No they're not.
Their performance in lesser threaded apps can be a little better, but it's not worth writing home about.

I also doubt Windows 8 will influence developers to start using more cores.
A new console generation might help with that however.
AMD are the minority, 8 and 6 core CPU's are also the minority.

Once Intel moves mainstream hex/octocore I wouldn't be surprised to see some more movement.

 

[Dirtyganker]

No they're not.

Hey don't think for a moment I'll be rushing out to buy their rubbish lol.

But there are plenty of reviews indicating the more positive aspects of more cores and threads making use of Windows 8 thread scheduling.

Their performance in lesser threaded apps can be a little better, but it's not worth writing home about.

I also doubt Windows 8 will influence developers to start using more cores.
A new console generation might help with that however.
AMD are the minority, 8 and 6 core CPU's are also the minority.

Once Intel moves mainstream hex/octocore I wouldn't be surprised to see some more movement.

Frankly I couldn't give a flying monkey's left whatsname about AMD and their products, but Windows 8 will certainly leverage more from modern multi-core/hyper-threaded platforms, and there's no escaping that fact.

 

[Dirtyganker]

oh yeah forgot about windows 8 being optimised for AMD

It's not optimised for AMD at all.

 

[Dirtyganker]

Forget Windows for a second. You have a ball bouncing off some rocks. It's no good if one thread knows about the ball, another thread knows about rock A, and a third thread knows about rock B. To have interactions between the ball and the rocks, the thread working on the ball has to be able to check the state of the rocks. If the state of the rocks is unclear, because another thread is moving the rocks around, then you have a problem.

The is a more fundamental problem than just which OS you happen to be using.

You can't forget Windows I'm afraid, and it's kinda influential in the whole scheme of things.

I'm not talking about apps being written to support multi-threading, I'm talking about thread scheduling in the OS which isn't the same thing. I do understand your point though, and the scenario isn't completely relevant unless you're purely talking about gaming, etc.

 

[Martini1991]

It's not optimised for AMD at all.

I hate the word optimising.

And the issue was as you've said, the scheduler, meant they were using the nth core on a module rather than a core on another module which gave a hit in performance due to the sharing of resources.

But they've fixed that with a patch to Windows 7 (Not sure how effective is it, but as I said, while it is an improvement, nothing to write home about)

Windows 8 won't be a cure for Zambezi, just like the magic BIOS's never appeared, it's hot air to give false hope.
Obviously the lack of a hack job for the thread scheduler fix should mean Windows 8 is better for Zambezi, but it certainly won't change anything.
Did Windows 8 scheduler actually do anything for Hyper threading? I wasn't aware it did.
Obviously I'll admit I find Windows 8 to be faster than Windows 7, so I'd say there's more headroom for CPU's, but it's certainly not going to make much difference in the grand scheme of things.

Development will move forward when the mainstream moves forward, which Intel still have us at dual cores and quad cores.
Doesn't help for gaming when the current generation consoles are such a bottleneck to development.

 

[FoxEye]

You can't forget Windows I'm afraid, and it's kinda influential in the whole scheme of things.

I'm not talking about apps being written to support multi-threading, I'm talking about thread scheduling in the OS which isn't the same thing. I do understand your point though, and the scenario isn't completely relevant unless you're purely talking about gaming, etc.

Hehehe. You quoted a post of mine that was talking about games using many cores. That post was a reply to someone who was expressing hope that games would start using many cores in the near future.

You said you expected Windows 8 to make a significant difference. I presumed we were still talking about games.

Now you're saying my argument is only relevant if discussing games... well yeah, I thought we were?! Hehe.

And no, I don't expect the win8 scheduler to make a noticeable difference. One or two % on AMD chips, maybe (if you're optimistic). Nothing more.

 

[Dirtyganker]

And no, I don't expect the win8 scheduler to make a noticeable difference. One or two % on AMD chips, maybe (if you're optimistic). Nothing more.

Well I can't tell you much about Windows 8 performance until next week when I receive my RTM licenses.

Right now I'm just running the June release on VM's just to get familiar with it's operation, Metro, Live store, etc.

When I get my RTM licenses next week I'll be installing it onto a portable USB3 SSD which I can then just plug in for direct use of any platform, since the installation will be portable and you can just plug your own installation into any machine and just run it. Then I'll be able to easily compare my 3770K and 3930K and see how much difference the extra cores and threads will make.

 

[Alkalinepro5]

I dunno there's more chance of it being an 8 core behemoth released that late, if they rushed it out the door this year it would probably just be a 6 core rehash of SB-E.

Intel really have no reason to release an 8 core CPU until the end of 2013 because SB-E still utterly dominates everything.

Doubt it.

Quad/six core forever.